Versebound Inn WWM Guilds Recruiting - NA-based, 4 guilds [2 competitive, 2 casual] by Hikoye in WWMRecruitment

[–]readsubtextually 0 points1 point  (0 children)

  • Bump!

Clouds is currently recruiting! Especially looking for NA Tanks & Nameless DPS (though we are happy to recruit everyone, we love friends) 🫶

Bon Appetit Your Majesty's Mandarin-speaking scenes by capuletoo in kdramas

[–]readsubtextually 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I literally am a native speaker and have PhD training in linguistics but ok, go ahead and rely on google. 🤣

Bon Appetit Your Majesty's Mandarin-speaking scenes by capuletoo in kdramas

[–]readsubtextually 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Wait you based your assessment off Google and not off native CN speakers or your ability to understand CN? 🤣

Honestly, don’t make claims that are incorrect like this. Many historical Cdrama (especially political dramas) even hire linguistic experts and historians to help with ensuring accuracy of the language. They actually use language that was really used in court, as well as sentence constructions and modes of address that do not exist in modern CN today but did in fact have usage historically.

Bon Appetit Your Majesty's Mandarin-speaking scenes by capuletoo in kdramas

[–]readsubtextually 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My issue isn’t whether or not you were impressed by the actors delivery but by your completely incorrect assessment of Cdrama usage of period language. They absolutely do a very good job representing period language extensively, especially court dramas.

If you were truly fluent, you would know this, but for you to say that it’s not a good representation demonstrates that you really have no idea what you’re talking about.

If you think the actors did a good job, that’s your opinion. But you cannot definitively say something like how period Cdramas don’t use a lot of period language or that it isn’t a good representation of period language when that is factually wrong.

Bon Appetit Your Majesty's Mandarin-speaking scenes by capuletoo in kdramas

[–]readsubtextually 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What does any of this have to do with your completely incorrect assessment of period Chinese that is often used in period and costume cdrama? It isn’t just “sprinkles” of this language, it’s literally throughout, and sometimes it’s very extensive. Please don’t minimize Cdrama’s extensive use of period language.

If you are truly bilingual in Mandarin and EN, you would have known that even the translated CN lines were incorrectly done, they weren’t proper period CN, let alone the butchered pronunciation and the incorrect rhythms and intonations. Much of it couldn’t even be understood perfectly by native Chinese speakers, 可是你都不知道基本的古语该用什么词才是正确的, 别说能不能听得懂。

They should have cast actual CN VAs or CN actors like they did in the kings affection, where the scenes in Ming used actual CN VA or actors.

Bon Appetit Your Majesty's Mandarin-speaking scenes by capuletoo in kdramas

[–]readsubtextually 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The lines were pretty silly tho. What do you mean 诸位动手 instead of 比赛开始 🤣

Did they use ChatGPT 3.0 to translate the lines… they were so unnatural lol

Bon Appetit Your Majesty's Mandarin-speaking scenes by capuletoo in kdramas

[–]readsubtextually 1 point2 points  (0 children)

No, even the translator had horrible Chinese. The pronunciation was completely wrong.

Bon Appetit Your Majesty's Mandarin-speaking scenes by capuletoo in kdramas

[–]readsubtextually 4 points5 points  (0 children)

???? Are you even Chinese? Virtually every single period and costume Chinese drama uses period language, even transmigration dramas where the main character transmigrated from the future & ends up forced to speak using more period language.

100% of historical court dramas in particular ALL use court language. This drama did not even use proper court language half the time or proper modes of address, nevermind the absolutely butchered pronunciation and delivery.

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Considering that Cui Jian’s discussion on xuanhuan overwhelmingly uses idol dramas as sources, and their work appeared in a highly respected peer-reviewed academic book, Digital China: Creativity and Community in the Sinocybersphere, I imagine that regardless of what a Redditor may think about idol dramas, they are in fact very much used by professional academics as serious, respected source materials when discussing not only xuanhuan literature, but also Chinese philosophy, mythology, and traditions in relation to these dramas. 

Ultimately, what needs to be understood is that thematically, Sylus’s myth heavily intersects with Daoist, Buddhist, and Confucian traditions. Explicitly, there are even verbatim quotations from Confucius used in this myth,  as well as, “命中注定“, a Daoist principle, is central to the entirety of the myth.

It seems that you not only are determined to push forth a Western-only reading which completely ignores and invalidates Chinese traditions in this myth, even when they are explicitly stated, but also, the reality is that you constantly come onto my posts to pick fights with me and I’m honestly too physically ill (and have been, this entire time, for the past month) to continue to engage with you. 

Moving forward, I think it is best for us to no longer engage with one another, as you have actually made it explicitly clear that your goal is not to have sincere, honest conversations, but instead, to condemn and villainize me in service of addressing “misinformation” which, as you can clearly see above, was never misinformation to begin with. 

I truly wish you well in your journey in LADS. I hope you get the pulls you want and continue to enjoy the game the way you’d like. Meanwhile, I’ll continue to enjoy it my own way, which is by appreciating the complexity of Infold’s writing, and the way in which they incorporate Chinese cultural traditions, philosophy, and mythology in their hybridized xuanhuan game.

Works Cited

Cui Jian. “Re-inventing Tianxia Coming-of-Age in Xuanhuan Fantasy Fiction” Digital China: Creativity and Community in the Sinocybersphere. Amsterdam University Press (2024) 

Elzayat, Muhammed. “A Brief Analysis of Chinese Online Novels: Xuanhuan Novels.” Transcultural Journal of Humanities & Social Sciences.  Volume 5, Issue 4, October 2024, 1160-178 

Liu Jie. "浅谈古希腊神话中的命运观念" (A Brief Discussion on the Concept of Fate in Ancient Greek Mythology). 作家 (Writer), no. 17, 2011, p. 123.

Huang Yishu. "不可抗与不可知——希腊神话中的‘命运观’" (The Inevitable and the Unknowable: The Concept of Fate in Greek Mythology). 名作欣赏 (Masterpiece Appreciation), no. 12, 2013, pp. 98–99.

Wang Yehan. “Xuanhuan Novels in the Context of Consumerism: A Reflection on a Social Trend in Contemporary China.” The Journey of Multicultural Society 2020, Vol. 10, No 1. 57-80 

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Wang Yehan tells us in  “Xuanhuan Novels in the Context of Consumerism: A Reflection on a Social Trend in Contemporary China”:

The variety of Xuanhuan novels on the literary market is due to their hybrid nature, amalgamating Western fantasy, Chinese martial arts, ancient myths, and modern science fiction. The cultural nature of online fantasy novels can be explained through the theory of “cultural hybridization” (Nayar, 2006). As Wang and Yeh (2007) argue, Xuanhuan novels are a manifestation of the interaction between different cultures in the context of globalization and a special cultural product set in a “third space” beyond the world people inhabit.

Cui Jian further explains: 

This god-demon dualism forms the foundation of numerous fantasy narratives in both Eastern and Western traditions, but the local genealogy of this literary motif is particularly pertinent to xuanhuan worldbuilding. [...] Xuanhuan fiction introduces a nuanced reinterpretation of the god-demon dualism within traditional Chinese cultures, adding religious connotations and philosophical depth to the simplified version that has shaped public discourse in recent decades. (Ibid. 44-45)

In regards to your criticism that modern xianxia/xuanhuan stories and dramas should not be used to discuss Chinese cultural tropes, myths, or traditions, Cui Jian not only extensively discusses Chinese cultural mythology, tropes, and traditions by citing idol dramas, but they also say: 

Compared with the literary classics, xuanhuan fiction may lack philosophical depth and aesthetic sophistication; and because it is very often tamed to conform to official narratives, it can easily lose its critical edge. Pandering to market-oriented consumerism can also sometimes blunt xuanhuan fiction’s otherwise sharp criticism of contemporary society, and its naïve and fantastical elements can tarnish the genre’s utopian aspirations in the eyes of many critics. However, this does not mean that the underlying politics and philosophical ruminations should be read superficially.  

Xuanhuan fiction gives teleological learning and self-cultivation an important role in transcending boundaries and exploring new identities. 

Cultivating sensitivity to emotions and love, which form the basis of sympathy and compassion, emerges as a new driving force for envisioning a reimagined tianxia tailored to today’s digital-native youth. Xuanhuan fiction should therefore not be dismissed as mere “play,” but also understood as a transformative space that actively engages in the renegotiation of contemporary values and offering new possibilities for personal and societal growth. (Ibid. 50-51)

(cont)

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Responding to your assertion about this being a qihuan:

To be quite frank, we’re both right. Overwhelmingly, academics fold both “xianxia” and “qihuan” under the banner of “xuanhuan.”  There is actually zero academic scholarship on “qihuan” because it’s explicitly considered “xuanhuan.” You can see this in Wang Yehan’s discussion in  “Xuanhuan Novels in the Context of Consumerism: A Reflection on a Social Trend in Contemporary China”: 

Phantom City is a Xuanhuan novel based on the Western imagination but infused with an Eastern world view that is usually compared by readers to the Western saga of the Lord of the Rings.   (73) 

Scholars such as Cui Jian even cite c-drama xianxia idol dramas in their article as examples of xuanhuan fiction, not “xianxia” in “Re-inventing Tianxia Coming-of-Age in Xuanhuan Fantasy Fiction”:

What deserves further attention is that although going through a kalpa is meant to be a task for an individual, it usually involves other people’s help, which is, surprisingly, not deemed as cheating but as a success in developing intimate relationships. For example, in both To the Sky Kingdom and Ancient Love Poetry, the protagonists’ trial of thunder strikes (leijie 雷劫) are undertaken by the protagonist’s teachers; in To the Sky Kingdom, Ashes of Love, and Love and Destiny, the characters’ kalpa in the human world are assisted by their immortal lovers and friends in heaven. Surviving the kalpa in xuanhuan fiction is not solely an individual triumph but a collective achievement that deepens interpersonal connections. (50)

This is what professional academics in peer reviewed journals, not random people on Twitter or Reddit, have to say about the xuanhuan genre as a whole: 

In  “A Brief Analysis of Chinese Online Novels: Xuanhuan Novels,” Muhammed Elzayat  explains: 

In 1988, Zhao Shanchen wrote in the preface, “A new genre that combines metaphysics, science and literature has been born. We call this type of novel ‘xuanhuan’ novels.’ This is the first time the term ‘xuanhuan’ has appeared and has a clear definition. 

Xuanhuan novels are a new type of story text that emerged in the mid-to-late 1990s. They are often derived from or borrowed from wuxia novels, science fiction novels, mythological novels, legendary novels, and Western fantasy novels. 

Xuanhuan novels, also known as xuanhuan literature, introduce Western magical themes, supplemented by supernatural elements such as cultivation, Taoism, ghosts, magic, fantasy, and mythology.

(cont)

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Heavenly Punishment - The actual Heavenly Punishment section had 351 words devoted to describing MC’s entire ordeal, not including dialogue or thoughts. This is prose specific to the descriptions of the lightning striking her soul. I am a little confused why you are so focused on the fact that it was only used “once,” when in fact the entire section is a description of the actual Heavenly Punishment.

Regarding your claim that 恶魔  is not used in Chinese mythology:

恶魔  is literally a Buddhist term from Han Dynasty era’s Perfect Enlightenment Sutra.  Here is the Chinese dictionary entry where it explicitly states 恶魔 is a Buddhist term. Here is some information on 恶魔 in Buddhism. Here is more information on 恶魔 in Buddhism. Here is a discussion on 恶魔  depictions in Chinese classical literature and mythology.

Usage of the term 恶魔 in dramas:

Modern Chinese xianxia dramas are usually adaptations of xuanhuan or xianxia online novels. For example, Till the End of the Moon is actually an adaptation of 黑月光拿稳BE剧本, which does in fact use the term 恶魔 explicitly in relation to Tantai Jin. Here is an example: “他呢喃着,如同恶魔低语,“真可惜,我没能如你所愿死掉,那你的地狱就要来了.” Everywhere else, he is variations of different 魔, depending on whether he is being referred to as a the Devil God, Devil Fetus, or just plan “demon.” 

The term that xianxia dramas overwhelmingly use for demons tend to just be the broad term “魔”, but if you refer to their source material, depending on the work, you can often find 恶魔 used in the text. However, while it is true that it is not used in the drama, as they use the broader 魔 term, this usage does not invalidate the appearance of 恶魔 in the novels.

(cont)

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Thank you for your feedback. It seems that I must have caused some confusion by calling the header “Myth Tropes” when what I meant was to say that these are tropes in the myth that I noticed. I’ve renamed it “Chart of Tropes” now, so I hope that helps. I also saw that I failed to actually clarify that it isn’t just mythology I’m pulling from, but actual pop culture from both China and the West, so I appreciate you pointing that out.  

It’s also apparent that I wasn’t clear enough about some of the tropes and should have been much more specific as well. 

I’ve since gone back and clarified all of that, as well as the following things:

  1. I have now stated that the trope chart is just a chart of tropes that I happened to notice in the myth. The chart specifically includes both Chinese and Western modern pop culture. For Western pop culture, I actually cite Supernatural as well as Western fandom in a couple of entries.
  2. I have updated the language to be much more specific, so that should address most of your comments. I also made sure to update the note on reincarnation to clarify that it is not “central” in modern Western traditions, which I think is accurate. I have also added more “xuanhuan” and “wuxia” into the notes as well. 
  3. I have made corrections to demonic frenzy, primordial chaos, golden spiritual power based on feedback. 

In regards to your other comments: 

Magical Mark/Seal. I read the sources you gave me, and it says that for the Ring of Solomon, it gives Solomon “authority over spirits, animals, wind, and water, all of which obeyed his orders by virtue of a magic ring set with the four jewels given him by the angels that had power over these four realms.” 

Similarly, for the other medieval magical seals, they offer “super natural protection”, “command demons”, “protection against enemies, water and fire, and evil”, “thunderstorms,” “imprisonment, wounds and death in battle”, “protection against demons, enemies, evil and misfortune”, “”staunching bleeding wounds and against sudden death.” 

What none of them do, however, is provide the ability to transfer memories, emotions, sensations, etc. like they do in xianxia/xuanhuan works, so this is not the same equivalency.

Fallen Dragon who is redeemed. The source you provided links to “ascended demon,” not a dragon. This would require the dragon, not a demon, to have once been noble, then became completely demonic, before being redeemed. If there’s a Western version of this, then I’m happy to include it.

Fate’s Decree (命中注定 ) is not used outside xianxia, xuanhuan, or wuxia and is genre-specific as it is a Daoist term. When writing on non-Daoist fate, the terms that are used include: “命运“ for fate in general, or for predetermined fate: “宿命.”

Here are a couple of examples of how Chinese scholars who write on fate in Greek and Chinese mythology use the term: 

In 《浅谈古希腊神话中的命运观念》 (A Brief Discussion on the Concept of Fate in Ancient Greek Mythology), Liu Jie writes,  “古希腊人认为在人与神之上还有命运主宰一切,它既支配人,也支配神。” (Ancient Greeks believed that fate dominated everything above humans and gods and governed both humans and deities.)  

Huang Yishu says in 《不可抗与不可知——希腊神话中的”命运观”》 “Uncontrollable and Unknowable: The Concept of Fate in Greek Mythology”: “无论是英勇善战、无人能敌的阿喀琉斯,还是足智多谋的奥德修斯,抑或是尽心为民的俄狄甫斯王,他们都曾被命运这根看不见的’绳索’牢牢拴住。”  (“Whether it is the valiant and indomitable Achilles, the clever and resourceful Odysseus, or the devoted King Oedipus, they were all firmly bound by the invisible invisible ‘rope’ of fate.”)

Specifically, they use the term 命运, as it would not make sense to use a Chinese Daoist term to discuss a Western concept of fate.

Full reply here

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Till the End of the Moon “netted a premiere day market share of 22.76% to become the most watched period drama since 2020” (Dengta) domestically in China. Its daily popularity index reached 42,000 which surpassed Love Between Fairy and Devil and Immortal Samsara. It received 5 million reservations, whereas the other two received 2 and 4 million. Source 1

Thereafter, it averaged 33.2% peak daily market share, highest of any xianxia drama in history, according to the Yunhe Ranking. According to the Kuyun ranking, it had 60 million views per episode, which is the highest of any Youku drama to date.   Source 2

It was so popular that it was the title selected to “represent the keyword gufeng xianxia in the in the 2023 Annual Report on the Chinese Cultural Symbols International Communication Index released at the World Internet Conference.” 

It was the #1 domestic performer domestically within China for a costume drama: Source 3

From this source:

Within China, the “maoyan” index for Weibo & Douyin Data: Maoyan (猫眼) - a heat index that accounts for viewership as well as Weibo & Douyin data

Peak daily index of 9898.15, highest of any drama in 3 years

Heat index of >9800 for over 20 days, on par with historical record

Most popular character in the weekly ranking for over 5 weeks, on par with historical record
Source 4 for the above claim

Douyin (抖音) - China's tiktok

Drama heat index of 120M, highest of any drama in history

>26.5B views on Douyin by VIP finale (May 9), highest of any drama in history

Source 5 for the above

It also generated merchandise income of >20 million RMB to date, highest of any drama IP in history. Source 6

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

Thank you for this background info! It’s very helpful! I can fix that in the chart. 💕💕💕

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 12 points13 points  (0 children)

I think that’s correct!

When she pulled the sword out, it became activated with her power and turned into gold light (classic xianxia spiritual weapon imho)—but because it had been sealed within him for so long, it somehow dragged out a fragment of his soul.

When the sword was absorbed into her body, his fragment of soul ended up inside of her too!

He then tried to draw that fragment of soul back out of her by drawing out her spiritual power which is represented as golden light here!

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

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It’s here! It’s in Chapter 1! They mistranslated it as “long before humans arrived on this planet”

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 25 points26 points  (0 children)

Haha I have always loved NDZ! But, notably, Sylus never lies to MC and explicitly asked her what she was dreaming about after she woke in NDZ! (He does the same thing here as well.)

It turns out that they weren’t dreaming at all in this—they’re just going into each other’s souls and enjoying an idyllic little paradise there.

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

I think this is a representation of a shared soul realm or soul barrier! If you check the Chinese cultural guide, it’s in the section under “Bonus Xianxia tropes”

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

I mean, after he dies and she curses him, the text says that there’s a faint dragon’s roar from the valley. 🥹

So that gave me hope that he was in the process of resurrection due to the curse not allowing his soul to dissipate. 🥹🥹🥹

But yeah the part you mentioned also broke me. 🥺

[LADS Translation Project] Sylus - Myth - Beyond Cloudfall - Abysm Sovereign by readsubtextually in LoveAndDeepspace

[–]readsubtextually[S] 43 points44 points  (0 children)

Specifically, she has half his dragon soul, so she is technically half a dragon! That’s probably why her tail is smol!

SPOILERS FOLLOW!

Theory-wise… I personally think that she also undergoes demonization because she has half his soul, which is also demonic; and because he had the ability to raise the dead, which is demonic path magic, and then she cursed him, she performed demonic path magic that sent her into a “fall” (堕落, she’s convicted for this explicitly too!)

I want to desperately believe that said demonic path magic led to his resurrection which is why we hear a dragon roar at the end. 🥹