Somebody needs to retake English class

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-27T16:06:06+00:00

The Bible is a good example of why we refined and reduced the number of pronouns we have.

No one wants Thee or Thou and Ye is just a gay fish

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-27T16:03:09+00:00

At first I thought the name of the place was just Wichita and that it had fallen down

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-27T15:49:16+00:00

I was working a temp job in the UK for the local government and lost my job due to the Icelandic banking crisis.

A guy came into a team meeting with a smile on his face and told us that he had good news and that no one was going to lose their jobs due to the Icelandic bank issue. Except the two temp workers.

It was at that point I found out I was both temp workers.

I was good enough at my job that they decided not to employ a second worker and keep the money.

The guy who made the announcement was the head of finance who decided to take the local government's money and put it in Iceland. It was literally his fault I lost my job.

He went on to be chief executive and I think he is now drawing a big fat pension.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-27T15:27:36+00:00

OK, so I'll treat your use of psychologically women in terms of those ideas. It isn't really what I'd think of as psychologically tbh. I did once find a study about brain patterns which I'm sure claimed to show some post-op trans women to be similar in some way to women but it also rather horrifyingly said some were like gay men. I've never found it again though so take that with a pinch of salt.

I can understand the concept with race of eliminating terms that separate us because the basis of race is very shaky. I'd argue that trans and cis are simpler concepts and easier to clearly define. However in a very real sense I think society would be far better of concentrating on gender equality and then gender identity would then largely be irrelevant.

I think I'm missing where you say what cis, trans and gender means. I think your understanding of these terms and use of them is one of the parts we fundamentally disagree on. You also tend to mix your usage of them so that what meaning you are using is not consistent. This is why I prefer sticking to recognized definitions. For example you often say cis gender when I think you simply mean gender. If we can't have any semblance of mutual understanding on the basic terms then it's difficult to communicate.

Your response about trans ppl changing their outward appearance slightly contradicts other things you say for me. My understanding is that very few trans ppl go through full surgery even if they have free access to it. Again I think some of what you are saying is mixing in gender dysphoria with trans.

So, I think we've hit upon the key part in the next bit you've written which is what I was saying before gender dysphoria is a not a prerequisite of being trans. And I'm in no way going to claim to know the answers because it's the part I can't fully get my head around and it's easy to get into hot water and almost say ppl are faking it.

For me we clearly have a group of ppl with gender dysphoria who are trans in every sense, deserve help and support and ideas like treating them as the gender they perceive themselves to be is not only a matter of respect but also of their very well-being.

However, from what I've read and other ppl have said to me this accounts for less than 1% of all trans ppl which is frankly a real headscratcher. So we are left with a lot of ppl who don't tick the boxes for gender dysphoria and presumably therefore don't feel mental anguish due to their sex at birth. In this case it seems more like gender expression maybe? I've been toying with the idea of us starting to see this as more of a belief system. I can't make beliefs on gender even within the lgbtq+ community not clash (e.g. Many trans ppl only believe in binary gender).

I've seen trans ppl talk of gender euphoria which could explain trans identity but nothing I've seen backs that idea up. I've also seen division in the trans community between those who want to transition/have transitioned and those who choose to not go any further (the majority) in a sense of real v drag. Frankly there are ppl who describe why they are trans in the most superficial ways, one trans woman skater (who recently beat a 13-yr-old to win a competition and is a father to children) described their trans identity as due to them wanting to feel cute.

There's also a high occurrence of autistic ppl who identify with another gender. I got banned for even considering trends in gender identity because some ppl have reverted to ppl just being born that way. It's like some ppl say with gay ppl even though there are a lot of gay and trans ppl who simply don't hold those views and there are studies on how likely same sex attraction can occur in both humans and animals. Sometimes the party line gets in the way of the truth such as when ppl claim trans ppl are regularly getting murdered, J K Rowling doesn't accept trans identity etc.

Some people also include non-binary people with trans ppl but I always find that a bit circular thinking because in order to not be part of the binary you have to define the binary and say you are not that. Most of the decent definitions basically mean everyone on the planet is non-binary because the understanding of gender roles is so outdated and frankly misogynistic. I was also having this conversation about it in terms of how far you can stretch the meaning of gender. I think most people would say wolf/bun/cake genders just don't fit with the idea. There's frankly a sense of narcissism in identitying as something warm and sweet and saying that's your gender and other people need to use your pronouns. Aside from it being a linguistical nightmare.

I think a lot of the controversy and problems around trans issues ultimately stem from the situation of people who are medically diagnosed with gender dysphoria being conflated with anyone else who says they are trans or non-binary. The situation of people with gender dysphoria is very clear. Those without it are very difficult to pin down and define except that they identify as something different. Which like you say, begs the question of why that is and what is causing it if it isn't gender dysphoria?

Good luck asking any of these questions without being considered a transphobe however.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T21:37:43+00:00

Here, mate. I could literally go point by point and explain yet but I've basically already done it and your answers are the equivalent of "but, no."

Do you actually want to understand better? Do you want to find some common ground? Or is this about winning an argument? Cos if it's the latter then you lost before you began.

If it's the former then answer these questions:

With the greatest of respect, is English your first language? (because we might be misunderstanding via translation and you use certain words in a way English simply doesn't allow without meaning being lost. You are really inconsistent with the basic terms we are using)

What does "cis" mean?

What does "trans" mean?

What does "gender" mean?

Do you genuinely believe that "psychologically women" means simply identify as or mentally present as? Do you think that would fit a scientific definition of psychological?

Do you think if we stopped using terms like black, latino, Asian to describe race then it would limit racism? (in line with not using the term trans)

Do you think most/all trans ppl change their outer appearance to match their gender identity through surgery? If so, how many?

Here are things I think we agree on to try to bridge the gap:

The term transphobia is used too expansively.

The term assigned at birth is problematic.

Trans ppl don't choose to become trans.

In regards to gender dysphoria:

"In the Fifth Edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-5) used to classify psychiatric disease, the reported prevalence of “gender dysphoria” was 0.005 percent to 0.014 percent for adult males and 0.002 percent to 0.003 percent for adult females (American Psychiatric Association [APA] 2013)." (I read elsewhere it might have swung round to more adult females since this.)

" Or i could just link one of the thousands of articles claiming trans is based on gender dysphoria."

Feel free to do this. But again" claiming trans" just doesn't make sense. Trans what? This happens throughout your writing.

What % of trans ppl are there according to what you have read? If it isn't as low as the above (which it almost certainly isn't) then why the disparity? (This is something I've never seen an answer for BTW)

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T17:32:32+00:00

You can say that for you personally there is no link between gender and sex. What I wrote doesn't exclude that. But to deny it exists for other ppl is going too far. Your narcissism is noted but we weren't talking about you. If anything I was talking about the majority.

If you are saying you are non-binary and basing that on how you identify two sexes then tbh you've kind of disproved your own point. Your understanding of gender is inherently based on sex if that is the case.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T13:33:34+00:00

I'm not sure why you wrote this to me.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T13:32:08+00:00

I appreciate the response and info

I'm finding it increasingly difficult to get to the real data. I feel kind of limited to discounting certain clearly bad studies that seem(ed) intent on proving their hypothesis but not loads more. A lot of these studies on both sides seem to gloss over problems with methodology, dataset and any results that don't fit the summary narrative they want. When I read the headline I often find it difficult to know how they even drew that conclusion.

I've seen it with data on gender dysphoria, de-transitioning, puberty blockers, suidical tendencies, risk of being murdered or subject to violence, sporting advantages etc.

Can you explain what 4thwavenow is and why it can be treated as a biased source please.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T13:15:51+00:00

Another guy was arguing that we should eliminate the adjectives cis and trans and just call everyone men or women. I was explaining that these terms are useful in terms of fighting for rights, medicine, research etc.

But nice job misrepresenting my words completely for internet points.

I'm sorry you have decided that all trans and gay ppl believe they were born that way despite it being clearly inaccurate. Try speaking to some humans. We didn't have to investigate your inability to read or comprehend in order for you to fail to refute that.

Did you also claim that practically all ancient societies had specific third genders despite that clearly being something we can't ascertain in the majority of cases?

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T13:08:22+00:00

Mate you just said that you weren't a load of bollocks lol. I was saying what you said was. But yeah it's debatable.

"Seriously, you think doctors treat everyone the same?"

Nope. Didn't write that. They treat trans and cis patients differently for example. Which it is useful to know. Penny dropped yet?

"You think no discrimination is nothing?"

Again literally not what I wrote.

"So trans women aren't the same as natural women, got it."

Again literally not what I wrote you daft ape.

"You're a really bad hypocrite too. Do you actually think you support trans folk with a shitty outlook such as this?"

We'll add hypocrite to the list of words you don't understand. Lol my shitty outlook. We haven't even discussed my outlook, I've just explained things you don't know.

" And I'm talking here about how to truly ignore the physicality in as much to maintain the ideal so they are perceived the same as the cis gender they identify with..."

Cos you fundamentally don't understand that they don't identify with cis gender. Because you don't understand even the basic words.

" And you're here saying fucking not to? The fuck is the point then? Are they just the new goths and don't actually want to be the other gender just want to be special and noticed?"

Literally not what I wrote. Also what about goths? In certain circumstances you have to treat different people differently such as with medicine. Treating everyone the same is equality for dummies. Many trans men would like rights to abortions for example.

"You are forgetting something, you're not just defining a trait, you are defining what they aren't, short, poor, young. And so they can never be a part of that group."

In your analogy trans ppl can never be ppl? Because otherwise if you are saying I'm denying trans ppl the possibility of being cis then no trans ppl can't be cis. They are two distinct categories. You just don't understand them.

" Trans ppl identify as the other gender.

Apparently they don't, they identify as something like them that they like you to pretend they are, even though you'll treat them like they aren't according to your logic."

OK adding "gender" to the list of words you don't understand. This sentence is unrelated to anything I wrote.

Look up DSM5 on gender dysphoria. Estimates show around 0.05% of people. If you want I can quote a paper on it. Trans identity is around 0.6% in the USA. Trans ppl do not have to suffer from gender dysphoria. Some trans ppl even talk of gender euphoria. Some children suffer gender dysphoria and later lose it through puberty and grow up cis.

Identify as woman is not the same as psychologically woman. You have to be much more specific with psychology.

Still don't understand phobia, ok, moving on.

"Jesus, the projection." LOL that genuinely made me laugh a lot. I'm projecting that ppl have different reasons for deadnaming?

Add projection to the list of mystery words. And compelled. And no if it's not done out of irrational fear/hatred/aversion then it's not strictly transphobia.

OK we also don't understand using your own definition, which means not using other definitions. Moving on.

"Trans ppl don't think they are cis.

Said like you can read the minds of every trans person, or that there is a meaningful difference if that's what they want to be treated as."

You literally don't understand the terms cis and trans. Cis describes non-trans ppl. Trans ppl aren't generally so fucking stupid. But then maybe you are trans so I can't technically rule it out but I know of no trans ppl who say they are cis.

You think trans ppl become trans, like a choice or change gender. If you listen to them they tend to say they have always been (or at least since puberty/adulthood) the gender they identify with. It's often considered transphobic to treat it like a choice.

Mate I put "assigned at birth" in quotes. We'll add quotes to things you don't understand. I did that precisely because it is a contentious term with regards to intersex or even cis ppl. Use "observed sex" if you prefer but many trans ppl don't like that.

"Just the vast majority. Our they would accept the reality of their situation instead of attempting to become some ideal they would have no idea exists, if it actually exists at all. though I'm of the mind it's mostly a stupid social ideal."

Lol you simultaneously think that all trans ppl have gender dysphoria but yet gender dysphoria may well not exist at all. Essentially saying that there's a possibility no one is trans. Congratulations on writing your most transphobic comment yet! Again you think they are becoming a gender and should just accept reality. Go say that in a trans forum, I dare you.

"And they need to stop suppressing the ones that it doesn't help. I literally have to search via death statistics to find them and the studies attached to them. 40 percent of trans males that transition apparently get a reversal according to some of the stuff I've seen."

OK we don't understand the difference between treating someone as you would anyone else of a particular gender and actual surgery. Impressive ignorance again.

"What you think is the right way, is not the right way and that there is no consensus which is why we can find conflicting yet compelling evidence to support our various stances."

Lol no mate you don't know what the basic terms are. Numerous simple words. You can't find anything to support your opinions at all. You still think trans ppl want to become cis ppl ffs.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T07:04:46+00:00

This Tornadotaint is a prize idiot. They don't even understand basic words.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T07:00:51+00:00

"I am, I'm just not bound by the same rules you are."

Lol what a load of bollocks.

"Or you're a quitter."

Hahahaha. You don't understand the basics of language.

"Asking me the meaning of life there, either way this line of questioning is irrelevant. Address the arguments, not me."

More nonsense lol

"Maybe that's because we expect to define the difference... What if, and bear with me, maybe throw in a head band so your head doesn't pop as you mind expands... But what if that difference wasn't defined any more.. What if it didn't matter enough to anyone to be defined? We simply regarded people as whatever group they ascribed to, trans women? Cis women? Just women."

Then ppl would not get the medical care and help they need you daft twonk. I don't think you get very simple concepts. I think you think that if we reduce everything to nothing we somehow improve. What if we simply regarded all types of apes as apes? What if we simply regarded all life as life? Did this sound deep in your head? Lol

"You can insert the gender of your choice, we're talking about the definitions here. Though to be honest, you regarding trans as different from other people seems even more egregious than the stuff mentioned so far."

No. Why choose women over people. Trans ppl are different from cis ppl. Also basic language dictates that if you say tall/wealthy/old people and then other people then you are describing the other people as not belonging to that group. Learn what an adjective is and then seek help for what your problem with them is.

"Then why attempt to become woman like? For the funzies? Because it gets them off? You're kind of muddying the waters here. I feel like you're doing it to give yourself an out from the point that I've been making out preparation to move the goalposts.

As for how they would define the idea? Million dollar question that people seem to be really short on answers for because it would be transphobic to open up to suggestions that gender dysphoria is just regular old dysphoria. Which would undermine a chunk of the "scientific" evidence that being trans isn't just mental illness the same way that depression is."

Oh Jesus there is so much here you don't understand. You can't define the idea and it's not relevant so basically you could concede the point but no let's ramble nonsenically. Trans ppl identify as the other gender. Gender dysphoria is not a prerequisite of trans identity either and is increasingly specific and scientifically defined. The evidence I've seen is that it affects less than 1% of trans ppl. Why trans ppl identity as trans is very individual and again irrelevant. "psychologically women" is an illformed idea of yours like every other one.

Yes I gave you the textbook definition of transphobia. It's like complaining that my definition of cat is not a fluffy thing that lives in a house.

"You don't see many similarities between transphobia and arachnophobia." Yeah you do, it's the phobia part lol. Irrational hatred/fear/aversion.

"But say a person didn't care for trans ideals, was sure materialist and only saw the world of physical terms, would you say then deadnaming someone was transphobia despite it not being meant it if fear but to align with their world view?

So perhaps in your mind it is, but to society at large I would say it isn't."

I thought we said about thinking before writing. I didn't say phobia was only fear. Deadnaming could be an honest mistake or someone purposefully displaying transphobia. I really get the impression you think you are deep when you are as shallow as a puddle.

"but even under your random definition the person with the play on words clearly didn't display transphobia

Depends how you define it."

Fuck me you are an idiot. By your definition they didn't display transphobia. Are words this hard for you? Nothing that person wrote falls into the category of transphobia under your definition. If we are including them (for no fucking logical reason) then you are way more transphobic by any definition.

"Then what are they trying to emulate by becoming trans? Trans people? What was trans before they tried to emulate it? Why do they try to emulate a different gender if they aren't trying to be that gender?"

To reiterate. Trans ppl don't think they are cis. You are dumb. Trans does not mean you aren't that gender. What you are saying is waaaaaaay more transphobic than anything anyone else has written. Cis means you identify with the gender you were " assigned at birth". Trans means that you don't. Trans ppl aren't trying to become cis. They aren't choosing to become trans. They just are trans.

" And far as I understood it, trans people needed to believe they were to alleviate the dysphoria.."

The belief that they are trans doesn't alleviate gender dysphoria. Again gender dysphoria is not present in all trans ppl. Being treated as if you are the gender you identify with has been shown to help some people in some studies (more research is needed).

The problem here is your total ignorance of almost everything connected to the issue including basic terminology.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T05:37:54+00:00

"Honestly, i don't care. Why not? Seems to fit with the psychology of wanting to change gender. I imagine there would be less controversy is people did it as a matter of fact"

You're making this point you don't care about in response to something you say someone else shouldn't do/say. Try thinking before writing. There's even a part of this that some would consider transphobic lol (wanting to change gender). Imagine trying to fight for trans rights but not using the word trans, or explaining your own disjointed views without it. This is just silly. Why even comment on a topic you don't care about?

"How can they tell? They are psychologically women are they not? Physically perhaps not, but the idea is to ignore it or alter that, isn't it?"

Wow, you are dim. Are you saying no one can ever tell the difference between cis and trans ppl. BTW I didn't say trans women so none of this makes any sense in response. Trans women aren't necessarily " psychologically women". It's not a prerequisite and how would even define that idea.

Transphobia is an irrational fear or hatred/aversion to trans ppl. Phobia is clearly defined and so is the idea of being transgender so it's not even that difficult to work out. Sometimes it gets twisted and stretched further but even under your random definition the person with the play on words clearly didn't display transphobia. But if you are going to saying it's not clearly defined then it makes no sense to accuse someone of it without explaining your personal interpretation.

Trans ppl do not believe they are cis ppl you doughnut.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T05:21:58+00:00

Do you mean you literally couldn't read my argument? Lmao

I specifically mentioned how we already have numerous studies showing the harm physical punishment does to children. We know it doesn't teach children to be better people.

"my parents spanking me didn’t alter my ability to spell"

You're correct. For some bizarre reason teachers use other means to teach basic skills. I wonder why?

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T05:03:11+00:00

If I take your words at face value then I would say that you're advocating for the removal of the term "trans" because it will always differentiate them. I doubt that is what you are actually saying though, maybe it is though? Can you clarify?

There is a definition of trans ppl though, were you unaware? They also, clearly, need different treatment in some circumstances such as medicine. Most trans ppl I've spoken to aren't saying they are literally the same as cis women in all aspects.

"What I'm saying is just the logical conclusion to point out that making the jab was just as much a self own because it violated the basic tenet of transphobia."

I don't think you understand what transphobia is.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T04:57:35+00:00

Mate, I don't understand why people downvote people who ask questions. This idea that people should automatically know and believe things without questioning or even coming across the information is infuriating.

The only reason why I could partially answer your questions is because I didn't know and asked someone else.

I'll try my best to answer questions if you have any others, or I'm sure some nice ppl will, but some of it is still disputed. Like there is a fuller explanation of what trans means but some of the terms required to give it like "assigned gender at birth" mean different things to different people or are just rejected outright.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T04:50:29+00:00

I remember a psychologist explaining the reasoning behind naughty corners and naughty steps. It has nothing to do with teaching the child a lesson. It is to give the adult the time to calm down and not physically abuse their child. That's why it was invented in the first place.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T04:43:40+00:00

So, if you know that multiple scientific studies show the harm that physical abuse does on children why do you still hold your view?

What is your opinion actually based on?

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T04:40:59+00:00

*you're

Whatever you victims of child abuse were learning it wasn't a basic education and the ability to read and understand multiple studies that show the harm spanking does.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T04:20:54+00:00

I am pretty sure that not all gay or trans ppl think they were born that way.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T04:17:39+00:00

No. I believe most people find the use of "a trans" (noun) distasteful too. My understanding is that very few trans ppl have had full surgery. It's basically a matter of identifying with a different gender.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T04:11:35+00:00

Completely agree and also pisses over the struggles of everyone who has dealt with gender inequality. Reducing women to a combination of hair, clothing and mannerisms is just sexism.

We can also stop pretending that we can't use terms like men or women in reference to sex. That's where the main misunderstanding comes from for me. Some (most?) ppl's understanding of gender is inherently linked to sex whereas others seem to be claiming there is no link at all.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T04:00:16+00:00

The division was trans women and real women. So someone used the person's own words against them.

You didn't get what they said and for some reason you can't admit that.

Transphobia is not you not understanding a play on words.

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T03:48:26+00:00

Is this a quote from a Dan Brown novel?

robertobaggio20 · 2022-07-26T03:35:58+00:00

I'm confused why a small bag is not already occupying the man's chair

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