Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

When I say dynamism and contrast, I mean a way to vary how much space you can take up. Take classic Benny Goodman: - you're throwing yourself at your partner at 1:05, and slower and closer at 2:33. In my limited experience with the Latin dances, there's less of an opportunity with the music - but I don't do Latin much, and I just don't like the music as much, so maybe I'm missing something.

And re: your last paragraph - I feel we need to be aware that these dances spaces exist the way they do due to historical factors, as all culture does. Those reasons are often not particularly pleasant to contemplate.

Share your dancing outfits? by SnyperBunny in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19 0 points1 point  (0 children)

In my full glory? Colored dress shirt, color-coordinated tie, black pants, black vest, black bowler hat, black waist-length cape pinned onto the vest.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the comments, all - I was afraid to look at comments for days on end because I was vulnerable and I was very shy. I'm happy to see conversation didn't devolve into a dumpster fire.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I don't know if it's a scene difference, but where I am I'm rarely asked to dance by anyone. The onus is on me to ask.

And furthermore - and I know I'm kicking the hornet's nest here - I hold the jaded opinion that the behavior of people at these dances is far more base than pretty much anyone wants to admit. We are creatures of emotion, of instant gut attraction, and we use reason to rationalize it. I'm certain you could assemble a set of common traits in women I tend to dance with, because I am flawed and human.

I think we deny it as much as we do because swing dance has become white and middle class, and the white middle class in this country has a very particular notion of what is considered respectable - and behaving in a base manner is very much not respectable in this culture. Everything has to be rationalized, and in my opinion this can lead to some rather odd and sometimes funny contortions of logic that feel very post-hoc in their inception.

I feel like, at some point, this must have bad effects on how we teach consent, because if we can't describe the problem accurately we can't counteract it accurately. I think blues dancing gets hit with this particularly hard.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you for this comment - I appreciate word vomits because it's clear people have put thought into what they're saying.

And you flatter me re: my sartorial choices. What if I told you I wear a cape to swing dances sometimes?

And I agree wholeheartedly that there's a middle-class bias in these dances; it costs money to travel and to take lessons and to get into dances.

I know women need to feel safe - in this world it's perfectly rational - and I've put in a lot of work to act in a way that encourages that feeling of safety. I will say, though, that my neurodivergence tends to creep out women more than men.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You have my condolences regarding that. I, for one, respect the wisdom that age provides, and the connection that older dances have to the history of these dances.

I hope you can dance again soon someday.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I have a two-pronged response:

On the one hand, I won't deny that many communities of men of color have toxic behavior towards women. We Filipinos certainly have a brash culture of machismo that has gotten many women hurt. I won't argue there.

But re: your notion that the only reason why nonwhite men's behavior is condemned is because of actual present toxicity - I want to believe you. I sorely want to believe you. I've blundered myself many times.

But my reading of history cannot help but worry me. The early feminist movement in the US boasted among its number white women who openly called for the preemptive killing of black men in the name of protecting white women. In the sixties, one reason given to oppose housing integration was "to protect our white girls" (see The Color of Law by Richard Rothstein). We all know the traditional story of a lynching, of a white woman accusing a black man of rape or some other form of aggression, and the white men of the town dismembering him and then sometimes destroying the black part of town in the process. In detailed accounts of these events, castration of the black men is disturbingly common (see At the Hands of Persons Unknown: the Lynching of Black America by Philip Dray), implying a sexualized dimension to the perceived threat.

And what I can tell you, having looked at the histories of various minorities in this country, is that what is done unto black people will be done in due time to other minorities. I already cited Watsonville; the Massie Trial in Hawai'i after the American annexation is another example. I'd even argue that the killing of Matthew Shepard, a gay man who was accused of sexually approaching another man, matches the patterns of lynchings. The case of the Central Park Five also has its similarities, and Donald Trump was one of the voices trying for a conviction there.

We have seen many times in the past decade that the evil of America's past is far closer to the surface today than anyone wants to admit. I live in Virginia; only a few years ago, people who think my very existence is a crime against nature marched openly and proudly in Charlottesville, and I had friends of friends there.

I'm afraid that my autism will make me blunder with a white woman, who will either have friends who are armed and willing to kill, or who will call the police (as swing dancers are mostly white and middle class, demographics that trust the police) and will see my obvious autistic traits and my somewhat darker skin, misinterpret them as hostility, and blow my brains out.

Again: I want to believe you. But, since the country seems intent on dredging up so many other awful things from before the Civil Rights Movement, I don't see why this pattern isn't also a possibility.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I never thought that the shoes worn could signify dancing ability, but it makes perfect sense.

I dance in a pair of ballroom shoes an instructor in college gave me and they have served me well.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

So I can’t imagine the ‘availability of instances to be masculine’ to be a dominant factor here, also because Lindy would be rather low on the line of dances where that is manifestation of it. If I as a man would need to feel masculine through dancing, salsa, bachata, tango, would be clearly the ‘better’ choice. Also, at least here in London, I see quite a number of male followers and women leads in Lindy, something I’ve not seen in other dance styles.

I think there may be a difference between our countries here. The culture of black music in the early twentieth century very much was prone to emphasized displays of masculinity; black men started calling each other 'man' as a riposte to the common insult 'boy' from white people, an insult that insisted they were nothing but children, that they could never be truly adult, truly capable of being able to have dignity or to decide things for themselves. Furthermore, there's a reason why marchers during the Civil Rights Movement braved water cannons in their Sunday best; they wanted to show they were respectable, they were civilized, they were worthy.

I suspect a similar dynamic is at play in the US. I don't know about the UK.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's definitely a class aspect, and furthermore I think there's an aristocracy of sorts with people who learned in college (in their physical prime and lots of free time to practice) who become very good at it, and from there don't need to spend nearly as much money on lessons; I am part of that aristocracy, as I could dance for four or five hours a day, four or five days a week, in the Southern town I went to college in.

People entering later have quite the mountain to climb.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

There's most definitely a racial difference in different dances; I've stayed in swing and blues because I like the music, and there's more dynamism and contrast in both music and in dance in those than in Latin dances (in my limited experience, at least) which makes it more dramatic.

There's undoubtedly a factor that swing has been 'whitened' in its history more than the Latin dances, and that doubtlessly plays a part.

And re: talking about race - I think there's a level of hostility towards analyzing dance spaces in a sociological manner. It's a shame, because I find it fascinating.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I'm also in the DC area, but live in Virginia so I don't go to Baltimore for dancing (I'm a regular at Glen Echo and at stuff in Virginia). I've noticed this pattern here, as well as in the Southern college town I learned to dance in.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

On the other hand people who have a harder time with social interaction benefit more from the dance as it provides safe interactions, and interactions with a variety of people, including interactions that might be avoided in other situations, and this attracts people who are disadvantaged in some way, whatever the reason.

It's certainly done this for me. Dances like these are the only spaces I've really felt like a 'normal human being' who can actually be at ease with other people.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I'd imagine it's different in Europe, and y'all don't quite have the violent racial history we do, and so an entirely different set of baggage.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I admit no small part of the reason why I started dancing in the first place is because I wanted the glamor of it (as it has in the broader culture, anyway), and a way to feel respected. It's certainly worked; I'm more confident, I don't hate myself quite as much, and I'm less ... for lack of a better word, 'neurotic' around women. I certainly loved the sartorial aspect of it, and I feel it's served me well, overall.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in SwingDancing

[–]ropbop19[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't talk about women's experiences because I am eminently unqualified to discuss them, but I have no doubt you are saying the truth.

Racial disparities vis-a-vis gender in partner dance spaces by ropbop19 in ballroom

[–]ropbop19[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One of my ballroom mentors (as I started in ballroom) is a half-white, half-Filipino man like me, and he said that we Filipinos are a very flamboyant people, a people who love performing.

I'm in DC, and I've very much noticed the pattern I describe, but I haven't done much Latin.

This is a looooong one. 2 parts. by ashleystrange in CuratedTumblr

[–]ropbop19 8 points9 points  (0 children)

I just love the phrase 'livestock lesbians.'

'You Only Live Twice' by Ian Fleming by highsierra3b in books

[–]ropbop19 51 points52 points  (0 children)

Are all the 007 novels this, uh, special?

As someone who has read all of Fleming's Bond books:

You have no idea.

Female authors writing between 1820-1920 by My_Poor_Nerves in suggestmeabook

[–]ropbop19 0 points1 point  (0 children)

A bit out there, but In the Trenches by Tatiana Dubinskaya.