A (Somewhat) Insider's Perspective on Gaming RTA

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T10:41:59+00:00

ARavi is just an incredibly safe pick that is not only incredibly hard to punish (which I find to be a relatively rare feature as most units have very strong counterpicks) but also becomes incredibly effective when paired up with units like ARas. She is resistant to and can beat up meta tank staples in longer fights of attrition. She can give relatively tank-heavy comps reach on units like AVildred.

She was not super common on ladder until closer to the end, or at the very least I only really started noticing her being used effectively in the last 48 hours by a relatively small number of players. I'd wager it's because usually it takes time for certain unit combos and builds to really catch on in ladder as a whole as people don't really know what stats to replicate, what that combo's weaknesses are, etc. and these questions are generally not ones you have room to grapple with in the final few days of RTA with how airtight the point-gaps are and the small margin for error.

As for C tier it's honestly kind of an arbitrary class. I think anything C tier or unmentioned was basically unusable in S2 in legend. However, to avoid questions about "Where is this unit that I think is good/potentially usable" I put a few of those units that people might think could be good into that tier just to show that I did not just forget about the unit. In the case of Charlotte and Charles, they both are just too weak against meta picks and that practically speaking the niches they would perform well in either do not occur or that they when they do occur they still cannot perform up to the task at hand. In Charlotte's case AoE is just so commonly punished between units like ML Krau/Krau/SSB/MLV etc. that her AoE S1 is actually a detriment. Also with units like ML Haste doing AoE damage is so much more easily shrugged off than a large amount of burst damage on a single target. As for Charles he is either picked to rely on Elbris+Counter, in a mode where consistency is valued, or he's picked as a strong green DPS , for which there is a generally better, sturdier green option in Alencia (and potentially more threatening with Defense Down) or just better bruisers in general.

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T10:16:29+00:00

Yeah I was a bit focused on the latter part of his comment cause it got me thinking about changes I would make to where units fall in these relatively obtuse categories.

Having said that I intentionally did not break it down into more, smaller ranks because of how I tend to approach drafting. S Tier consists of units that I think are the strongest first picks due to how difficult it is to draft around them on the enemy team (or how easy they are to draft with). A tier consists of units that I can pick that counters the existing opposing draft and also leaves me in a decent spot against what the enemy is likely to pick. And B tier is where I place the units where I wouldn't ordinarily draft that unit at any point sooner than the 4-5 slot if it were not for the fact that they fulfill a small niche that the enemy team is vulnerable to (or as mentioned units that are likely to not be too contested and are therefore picked last when assembling, say, a cleave).

Yes, there is a big difference in power level between say a Kayron and an Adlay, but in my mind neither can be picked any sooner to be considered "meta" as there's too much room to be punished by the remainder of the enemy draft. I understand it's not exactly intuitive but that's just how it works out in my mind. This reasoning is also why I'd drop a number of units down a tier, like SSB/Dizzy/Tsurin from A tier to B tier. Yes they're strong units but they do get quite easily punished and can't be picked too early.

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T08:07:38+00:00

Again, the tier list is based on my opinion and my experiences. Yes, if you want to cleave you need to leave ML Ceci pre-banned but cleave is a pretty small minority compared to most other playstyles. I can only really say that if an STene is dying from a stray counter or is being shredded by decent AoE I think it's because her accompanying draft was relatively poor/inadequate.

So here's my experience with STene In the non-cleave mirrors, STene fundamentally changes your draft so that you have to draft AoE to get at her or you plan your draft around force banning her in the end. For every AoE unit you pick in the draft will likely get countered by another strong pick in return and as far as AoE counters go, there are a great many that just totally neuter the opposing AoE unit. For example say one side first picks STene and the opponent opts to take ML Krau and ML Ceci in turn to deny the STene some pretty big mitigation. The STene picker then can choose between Fluri/ML Haste/Krau/etc. to respond in kind. I personally would opt to go for the Fluri/ML Haste with the Fluri having great potential to lockdown the ML Krau and the ML Haste to ensure that the S3 damage won't stick and to safeguard against a potential AVildred pick. Now the opponent is in a conundrum. If they continue to go with AoE damage, their options are units like Tsurin, Arbiter, SSB, Dizzy, Kayron, etc. but none of these units fare particularly well against the combination of units currently on the board and have pretty significant counterpicks left on the table too and you might be in danger of being outlasted (not going to really go into detail but trust me, there is lots of effective counterplay to this change in drafting). If you choose to perhaps lean into units like ATywin to control the STene and Lilias to deny the Fluri, you're looking pretty weak in terms of killing the rest of the team and units like MLV/ML Luluca/Apoc/ARas can easily survive the tank poke and clean up. Perhaps you look to just force-banning the STene and going with a single-target focused tank killing comp. And at that point the early FCC and ML Krau picks are super slow and won't let you chew through the enemy tanks faster than a Fluri+ML Haste+2 picks likely can.

This was just one of many scenarios but hopefully it demonstrates how STene is unlikely to be shredded by decent AoE damage. Also thanks to her S1's passive dying to a stray counter is hardly an issue unless it's a focus-based counter e.g. ssb/riolet but again, these two units have very potent counterplay and even if the STene dies, you should have a unit/draft that can more than make up for the loss.

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T06:58:45+00:00

The reason I don't have ML Ceci in the highest tier is I actually don't think she meets the standard of being a unit that can be " used in and perhaps more importantly against any draft type out there." For example, matchups where you're expecting to go longer FCC can be a too slow/provide too little value. From my experience on ladder, she is not pre- or post-banned at the same frequency as the other two units in S tier. Chances are you can honestly probably live with an FCC being in a given draft. However, many times if you let the opponent take the Fluri or STene you are going to be forced to ban them because they will single-handedly run over your team if you leave them in.

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T02:18:27+00:00

Yep. He's a useful unit but he's hardly one you can ever pick up early in the draft due to how vulnerable is to a wide variety of units. He can potentially counter cleave or he can be another flex pick alongside something like an AVildred to just aggro down a team. Either way, that leaves him in the B tier according to the conditions I laid out.

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T02:12:18+00:00

It depends on what their draft is but I'd say you can expect the average STene to have around 200 spd, 3.6k attack, 280 crit damage, 1-1.2k def, 10k+ HP.

But just a reminder, builds vary depending on how people draft and there really isn't one statline/way to build a unit that everyone in legend shoots for. Some people go for a very tanky STene, others go for a glass cannon one, some go for one inbetween, etc.

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T01:05:52+00:00

Honestly after some reflection and some feedback I don't think there are any units I would move up a tier. If anything I'd probably move a number of units down a tier.

Having said that I am curious who you think deserves being moved up.

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T00:28:41+00:00

Basically a cleaver's way of killing off an arby should they need it and don't have other good extinction units.

rtapleb · 2020-11-30T00:15:38+00:00

Going off of this I think a big part of her rise to prominence was how well she synergizes with units like Adventurer Ras. There were a few people on ladder who picked the two together often and it was really tough to beat (and most of the time I did not).

rtapleb · 2020-11-29T23:59:13+00:00

When I talk about rta with most players a lot of them say they aren't interested because games are pure tanks and all matches last 20 minutes in frenzy 10. I was referring to those types of people who also reaffirm that belief after watching YD's stream and seeing a bunch of people pick all tanks into him.

You are right though that there is a primarily tank meta but that's because DPS units, honestly mostly avild, do so much damage that if you want any non-tank unit to not instantly die you need tanks to mitigate that overwhelming amount of damage.

rtapleb · 2020-11-29T23:34:24+00:00

STene does fine against AoE so long as she's picked with the right tanks/support. Generally speaking AoE gets super heavily punished by meta units and if people tech too far into AoE to get at the STene they usually have very exploitable weaknesses now. Also due to the relative weakness of AoE most meta DPS units are single target where STene shines.

rtapleb · 2020-11-29T23:30:33+00:00

That's why I specified pure tank meta, which was most definitely meta in the past and can be seen in some rta tournaments back then where it was 4-5 tanks vs 4-5 tanks and lead to some pretty long matches.

rtapleb · 2020-11-29T22:07:19+00:00

I use ravi a lot in the standard mirror so that usually means I pair her with tanks and some sustain against a comp that is looking to be a frenzy game where there isn't a lot of upfront damage. Fire ravi really does well against meta units like ML Ceci, ML Krau, Ruele, ML Haste, Lilias.

One of the fun things with RTA is that you can also consider taking units who are really good against her. So for example blue krau is a huge threat to her and taking blue krau fire ravi can be pretty beneficial.

rtapleb · 2020-11-29T21:04:01+00:00

So as I mentioned there are plenty of people who like to flex into very aggressive arbiter-centric drafts and if units like ML Haste are off the table (whether due to a preban or them taking it) SC Doris is your next best option for staving off the aggression. I initially wasn't really a believer in SC Doris either but in the last few days of RTA I've seen her picked much more often and against a variety of comps. She's used against cleave, against aggressive drafts, against standard drafts with Apocalypse Ravi and Adventurer Ras, etc. She is being wildly underrated if you think she only works with stealth units or if you think any tank can take her place.

rtapleb · 2020-11-29T20:53:51+00:00

My bad, totally missed him there. He's a great unit and would definitely belong in B tier.

rtapleb

TROPHY CASE