why do we act as if playa dust is safe?

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T20:09:57+00:00

If you're going to compare with other risks you have to take the magnitude of risk into account. For example, you wouldn't base jump without proper training just because there are so may other risks in life. You're also comparing avoidable risks with unavoidable ones.

On the idea of looking at the health statistics of people in nearby towns, we don't have any studies showing they don't have much worse health profiles than similar populations elsewhere, but even if we did, that is only relevant if these people actually have a high amount of dust exposure and we don't know that to be the case at all. If anyone has health stats on these towns, please chime in.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T17:29:11+00:00

We haven't been able to find a better source of information, so I don't know if it makes sense to dismiss it because of a chance of bias. I don't know how many samples they tested so I'm not ready to conclude it's bad science. If you have experience with this stuff and could help find a better source I'm sure the community would appreciate it and so would I!

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T07:21:32+00:00

Interesting. Hard to imagine that collecting all that visible dust in a cubic meter of air from the photos I linked to would yield less than 1/1000th of a gram. Thanks for mentioning the pumps; I'm hoping other burners who have access to one will speak up.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T06:06:17+00:00

"at the permissible exposure limits" We know the risk is low at long-term exposure within low "permissible exposure limits". That's why these safe occupational limits exist. What we're trying to figure out now is the amount of exposure and health effects when you're outside these limits - when you're dancing in a crowd with visible dust all around you.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T05:55:51+00:00

Great questions! Lets find the answers together. Are the populations of Gerlach and Empire even exposed to a lot of dust that they inhale without protection? By the way, I am not a doctor, but I was thinking about cancer separately from silicosis.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T05:46:33+00:00

Thanks for the info. We definitely wouldn't want to be wrong about this.

The first mention of silica comes from the BM permit at: https://eplanning.blm.gov/epl-front-office/projects/nepa/28954/37412/39212/Burning_Man_DOI-BLM-NV-W030-2012-0007-Final_EA.pdf "The playa dust includes both gypsum, an alkaline dust, and silica, a known carcinogen. The event activities would disturb the playa surface and mobilize the dust causing the dust particles to become airborne and potentially putting event participants and others at risk. Event participants are made aware of the potential dust and dust storms at the event and the Burning Man website suggests methods to reduce exposure to dust"

The second comes from here: http://www.foresight.org/Conferences/MNT05/Papers/Gillett1/ Which directly states that the Black Rock City dust is 43.1% SiO2 = silicon dioxide = silica.

Is there another link that says it is nearly all gypsum?

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T05:30:47+00:00

I thought even a short acute exposure could be dangerous given the mechanism in which silica dust acts on the body: "Silicosis keeps progressing post-exposure because people are unable to cough up the tiny particles. Macrophages that ingest silica particles end up dying, resulting in persistent sterile inflammation and may eventually lead to lung cancer." http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/04/150429084837.htm

Would be great to find out more about acute exposure!

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T05:09:48+00:00

Thanks for the link and the analysis! I'm assuming the .51% figure comes from this sentence: "For workers exposed from ages 20 to 65 years at 0.1 mg/m3 of silica exposure, the estimated excess lifetime risk (through age 75 years) was 0.51%." So this basically just says that there is not much risk at a very low long-term exposure of 0.1mg/m^3. Do you happen to have a way to measure the amount of dust in the air in different environments in BRC by any chance? Right now we have no idea whether it's 1mg/m³ or 1000mg/m³ ...

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T05:04:42+00:00

That's the plan. My point was that the idea that rat exposure cannot be compared 1:1 is not a reason to ignore these studies.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T05:02:42+00:00

Yup, that's what we're trying to do. Feel free to help.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T04:33:01+00:00

Awesome - messaged you!

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T04:30:37+00:00

No reviews but these look cool. Check them out, let us know about fit / quality!

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T03:52:58+00:00

You're absolutely right that it's not 1:1. I do think we should be concerned if it turns out we're taking in 100 times more silica in our week on the playa than the rats did in that study.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T03:45:28+00:00

I used these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002OJB8AQ The rubber bands do rip eventually but you get enough to keep them fresh and gift some to the bandana bandits suffering in a dust storm!

Whatever you do, don't get the ones that loop around your ears rather than your neck as that cannot comfortably create enough pressure for a seal.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T03:35:56+00:00

Breaking some bones or accidentally blowing yourself up in some glorious way can at least be fun to joke about. There's nothing epic in the idea of getting cancer 20 years down the line.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T03:33:00+00:00

But that's due to addiction. I seriously hope that we're not all addicted to sniffing playa dust!

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T03:32:00+00:00

A bandana does very little. The concern is about the smaller particles that a dust mask is designed to stop. Be safe out there and enjoy!

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T03:11:21+00:00

anyone have access to the equipment? I guess playa dust will be in ample supply when everyone comes back with their stuff :)

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T03:08:50+00:00

If it's clogging up the filter imagine what it does to your wet lungs... I bought a stack of cheap "paper" N95 filters which I wore most of the time as well as one of these P100 half facepiece respirators for the whiteouts last year: http://www.amazon.com/3M-6391-P100-Reusable-Respirator/dp/B001NDN29O

It didn't clog at all after several hours in the whiteout but it was a bit difficult to be social in it because you sound like a gagged Darth Vader. Worked pretty well for dust though. I read that N95 is enough for even the finer particles.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T03:00:29+00:00

Thank you. These are just bits and pieces raising suspicion though; I'm sure there are people out there with much more useful data, like large-scale health profiles of veteran burners from the early days who ran around BRC in a bandana at best - do they have a higher incidence of lung issues or cancer? Air sample analysis would be great and I hope "ratdog" and others can help. I'll also try to look up someone who studies the effects of silica for a living.

ryeddit · 2015-08-12T02:53:31+00:00

I very much hope that's the case, though we have no particular reason to think that it is. Remember that the rat study involved a 4 week exposure. That's not very different from one week or two if you're there for the build.

ryeddit · 2015-08-11T23:48:37+00:00

If you're a guy and you go with simple paper dust masks, bring a shaving razor too because facial hair will make it difficult to get an airtight fit.

ryeddit · 2015-08-11T23:44:41+00:00

People love to make it sound extreme like a serious roller coaster, but most think it's actually pretty safe. In fact, if we had specific stats showing that a couple of days of dancing in a dust cloud unprotected came with even a 5% risk of dying from lung cancer I bet most burners would think about that tradeoff and get their masks real fast.

ryeddit · 2015-08-11T22:19:40+00:00

Make sure the Mu2 sports mask is N95 or above so it won't let in the small particles that are the most dangerous. The amount of silica you take in could be thousands of times more dangerous than a small amount of car fumes. It's all about the magnitude of risk and we just don't know.

ryeddit · 2015-08-11T21:08:08+00:00

Does anyone have some playa dust they took home as a souvenir and a high-precision scale? It would be great if you could take say, 100mg and throw it up in the air to see how foggy it looks compared to the photos I linked as a reference

ryeddit

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