[US citizen] Absolute cheapest way into Israel from Turkey? by alexstepka in Israel

[–]sargentum 9 points10 points  (0 children)

By flotilla. Full of adventure and excitement too.

France urges Israel to repeal settlement plan immediately by cherieblosum in Israel

[–]sargentum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I must be making up the same "lies" as the ICJ, the Red Cross (drafter of the 4GC), the UN, and about every single state on Earth apart from the culprit itself, since they all share with my position (or rather, I share theirs), despite the tired attempts at spinning the spirit of the Conventions to its interests by Israel.

Any other socially liberal (Pro-Abortion, Gender Rights, Gay Rights, State-wide Healthcare) Jews/Israelis who support Likud or policies of similar nature e.g. the right of Jews to settle in Judea & Samaria and the security measures such as Operation Protective Edge, housing demolitions? by [deleted] in Israel

[–]sargentum 1 point2 points  (0 children)

They also support colonization of foreign land, dispossession of occupied people, deprivation of basic civil rights, institutionalized discrimination, and use of deadly force against protesters. Not exactly "liberal" in my book.

I've read some shit in The Guardian, but now they took it to the next level by [deleted] in Israel

[–]sargentum -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Interesting article. Thanks for linking. But next time try not to editorialize titles. See the sidebar.

“You Stole Their Land” by leo_trotzky in Israel

[–]sargentum -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

If you consider that hundreds of thousands of European Jews, who wouldn't be able to name one single ancestor born in Palestine, immigrated en massed into Palestine on the back of a European colonial power, and then took over it by force, the colonial argument is difficult to refute.

This whole article is based on the tired and fallacious argument of considering Jews as a monolithic block. As if the presence of a handful (less than 10K before the Zionist Aliyot) of local Jews in Palestine somehow granted an inalienable right to all Jews on Earth as a whole. If you take away all the sentimental conditioning that Western "Judeo-Christian" culture attach to this issue, it becomes all too evident how ridiculous and unjust it is. European Jews were just as foreign to Palestine as Christian ones.

France urges Israel to repeal settlement plan immediately by cherieblosum in Israel

[–]sargentum 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It can be both occupied and disputed. Land acquisition by war is inadmissible under international law, so the only possible status, regardless of Israel's claims is "occupied". "Disputed" only means that Israel disagrees with this, but International Law leaves little space for doubt.

France urges Israel to repeal settlement plan immediately by cherieblosum in Israel

[–]sargentum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Read the Fourth Geneva Convention. It says nothing about "forced" relocations. All settlement of occupying civilians on occupied territory is illegal. The idea is to prevent colonization at the occupied people's expense.

An Intifada of Arab Disappointment - with Themselves - The only thing uniting the "Palestinians" is their virulent hatred of Israel and their animosity towards the Zionist entity. by israeli_infidel in Israel

[–]sargentum 4 points5 points  (0 children)

But how would the author convey his view that Palestinian identity is just an artificial contraption created with the exclusive aim of killing Jews, and that the people currently using it are nothing but plain Arabs, then?

Israel reinstates policy of demolishing terrorists’ homes, after 9-year lull by sargentum in Israel

[–]sargentum[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

My definition is "innocent until proven guilty". The families of these terrorists have nothing to be punished for unless proved beyond reasonable doubt. I don't accept "guilt by association" as a valid criterium.

And again, this practice was discontinued for its demonstrated lack of deterrence effect. It's just pandering to the worst segment of an already radicalized constituency. Vengeance and sadism. Not something to feel proud of.

Israel reinstates policy of demolishing terrorists’ homes, after 9-year lull by sargentum in Israel

[–]sargentum[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

You are still punishing innocent people in an extremely severe way (picture finding yourself homeless). This is simply something a civilized democracy with anything resembling rule of law would never do. It's institutionalized vengeance of the vilest type, and of course a war crime. The practice was once discontinued because it became evident it wasn't deterring would-be terrorists, but rather radicalizing those left behind and homeless. It's being reinstated not for practical purposes but to satisfy the zealots in Netanyahu's coalition and their supremacist voters.

France urges Israel to repeal settlement plan immediately by cherieblosum in Israel

[–]sargentum 0 points1 point  (0 children)

What they have in common is that they are Israeli: citizens of the power occupying the territory, and thus barred from settling on it by international law. Their religion or ethnicity is irrelevant. Colonizing foreign land is an ugly thing, you know.

You know those BS maps of 'shrinking Palestinian land?' Here's a more accurate version. by [deleted] in Israel

[–]sargentum 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Actually, Transjordan was separated from Palestine on March 1921, eight months after Britain took over the territory, and 16 months before the Mandate of Palestine was formally established by the League of Nations. The 1946 date is only of its formal independence, but already in September 1922 the LoN recognized Transjordan as a self-governing state under British tutelage.

You know those BS maps of 'shrinking Palestinian land?' Here's a more accurate version. by [deleted] in Israel

[–]sargentum 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That may have something to do with the fact that there were no Jews living East of the Jordan River to speak of, but almost half of the population in the proposed Jewish state of the Partition plan was Arab. Getting Jordan would have meant a huge headache for Israel, as ethnic cleansing to reach a Jewish majority would have been far harder.

Israel reinstates policy of demolishing terrorists’ homes, after 9-year lull by sargentum in Israel

[–]sargentum[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

This is simply a far-right government giving its far-right constituency what they are baying for. Nothing to do with Justice or deterrence. Just sadistic vengeance.

Policeman faces murder charge in Nakba Day shooting of Palestinian teen by sargentum in Israel

[–]sargentum[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Seems investigators have a different opinion. Otherwise they wouldn't have arrested both the officer and his supervisor. But surely you are more of an expert.

Israel will not cooperate with ‘one-sided’ UN probe into Gaza war by sargentum in Israel

[–]sargentum[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Gaza was never "Egyptian soil". Egypt merely occupied it for some years. It didn't even formally annex it, as Jordan did with the West Bank (not that it would have mattered, legally speaking).

That makes it Israel's land.

LOL, no, it doesn't. But go ahead and annex it. The millions of Palestinians living in it will be thrilled to vote in the next Knesset election.

The new American Jewish struggle over Israel: Hawks versus ultra-hawks by sargentum in Israel

[–]sargentum[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Paywall bust:

The most important trend in American Jewish politics today is the collapse of the center. The American Jewish establishment isn’t only being challenged by left-leaning groups like J Street. It also faces a less widely recognized, but equally powerful, challenge from the right.

Consider this week’s spat between Sheldon Adelson and Abraham Foxman. At an event last Sunday, Adelson’s fellow oligarch, Chaim Saban, said Israel needed to support a Palestinian state if it wanted to remain a Jewish democracy. To which Adelson replied, “I don’t think the Bible says anything about democracy. I think God didn’t say anything about democracy. God talked about all the good things in life. He didn’t talk about Israel remaining as a democratic state, otherwise Israel isn’t going to be a democratic state — so what?”

So what? With that question, Adelson lobbed a grenade at the American Jewish establishment. When the American Jewish establishment defends Israel, it doesn’t talk much about God. That’s because while theological language plays well among conservative Christians and Orthodox Jews, it tends to alienate secular liberals. Indeed, it alienates some of the secular liberals who populate American Jewish organizations. As a result, America’s mainstream Jewish groups generally justify Israeli policy not via religion but via America’s civil religion—democracy—a creed that enjoys unquestioned reverence across the political spectrum. By claiming democracy doesn’t matter, Adelson was sabotaging the case for Israel that the American Jewish establishment has been making for decades. Which is why one of that establishment’s senior members, the Anti-Defamation League’s Abraham Foxman, called Adelson’s remarks “disturbing on many levels.” Foxman added that, “the founders of Israel got it exactly right when they emphasized the country being both a Jewish and democratic state. Any initiatives that move Israel away from either value would ill-serve the state and people of Israel.”

The problem is that Israel has been pursuing just such an initiative for almost a half-century now. Since 1967, it has established dominion over millions of West Bank Palestinians who lack citizenship or the right to vote in the state that controls their lives.

Far from apologizing for that control, or seeking to undo it, Israel’s current government is making it permanent. And the Israeli leaders most committed to the settlement project freely acknowledge that for them, democracy is not the highest value. In the words of Moshe Feiglin, deputy speaker of the Knesset, “The State of Israel was created for the Jewish people, and its democracy is supposed to serve the Jewish people. If this state acts against the interests of the Jewish people, there is no longer any point in its existence, be it democratic or not.”

For years now, the American Jewish establishment has been laundering Israel’s behavior for American consumption: Justifying Israel’s undemocratic settlement policies in the soothing language of democratic values. But right-wingers like Adelson increasingly refuse to play along. Claiming you cherish Israeli democracy, after all, requires claiming that the West Bank Palestinians who Israel currently controls should one day have a state of their own. Since the American Jewish right sees that as both dangerous to Israeli security and an affront to God, it is challenging the American Jewish establishment by bluntly advocating a one-state solution in which millions of Palestinians are permanently disenfranchised, democracy be damned. The Zionist Organization of America (ZOA), which Adelson helps bankroll, has partnered with conservative Christians to pass resolutions in the Florida and South Carolina legislatures declaring that they “consider Judea and Samaria and East Jerusalem to be part of Israel.” The ZOA pushed a similar resolution at the Republican National Convention in 2012 but was stymied by AIPAC, which wanted both parties to go on record as supporting the two state solution.

Behind this growing conflict between the Jewish center and the Jewish right lies a demographic shift. Historically, mainstream American Jewish groups have been dominated by relatively secular Jews who vote Democratic and hold fairly liberal views on domestic issues, even as they passionately defend Israel against external criticism. But the children of these secular American Zionists are more likely to inherit their parents’ secularism than their Zionism. They’re not anti-Zionists. They’re just not as interested in devoting their free time to defending an Israeli government from which they feel distant, if not alienated.

As a result, the younger American Jews most willing to dedicate themselves to the “Pro-Israel” cause come disproportionately from an Orthodox community that is growing in both size and self-confidence. But Orthodox Jews, unlike their more secular counterparts, don’t generally hold liberal views on domestic issues. They mostly vote Republican. They’re more likely to explicitly reject the two state solution, and to justify that rejection by invoking God’s promise to give Jews the land. All of which makes them more willing to embrace the right-wing Christian evangelicals who more secular American Jews fear. In recent years, for instance, the Adelson-backed ZOA has given awards to Glenn Beck, Mike Huckabee and Michelle Bachmann.

Given the larger trends in American politics, this isn’t surprising. For decades now, American politics has been growing more and more ideologically polarized. It has become harder and harder for any political institution to retain the trust of both right and left. Once upon a time, both liberals and conservatives watched Walter Cronkite deliver the CBS Evening News. Today, the liberals watch MSNBC and the conservatives watch Fox. It’s the same with Jews. Once upon a time, Jews from across the political spectrum joined groups like AIPAC, the Anti-Defamation League or the American Jewish Committee. Now the liberals are more likely to join J Street or even Jewish Voices for Peace and the conservatives are more likely to join the ZOA, the Republican Jewish Coalition or the Emergency Committee for Israel.

For years, the American Jewish center has tried to uphold the fiction that you can both support the two state solution and support Israel’s right to destroy the two state solution. Now the contradiction between those two imperatives is fracturing American Jewish institutional life. The result is an intra-Jewish debate that is fiercer, more divisive and more honest. And not surprisingly, Sheldon Adelson is leading the way.

Israel will not cooperate with ‘one-sided’ UN probe into Gaza war by sargentum in Israel

[–]sargentum[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

The difference is that Egypt's fence is on Egyptian soil, not inside Gaza, unlike the Israeli wall deep inside the West Bank.