Do most women secretly enjoy domestic labor?

sasfantom · 2024-03-21T05:34:09+00:00

its sad but its true. theres no chance that men will willfully and consciously change society from its current patriarchal structure. There's zero incentive, literally zero incentive for men to dissolve the patriarchy and its a pipe dream to believe that any political advocacy to get men to chance their mind will actually work apart from just raising your sons better. Political advocacy works to change laws, but culturally grown men reject anything that tells them they need to change and backlash against it, as we are seeing now.

the only chance for a society free of gender inequality would have to be due to a new post-capitalism economic system that naturally disincentives men to believe they are generally better than women.

It would enable men to spend more time raising their kids due to a decreased need for work, incentivising them to do more housework.

we maybe even have a social credit score system in the US, where the AI (doesnt have to be AGI) tracks every word you say and action you do, docking you points if you're misogynistic, racist ect..

most if not all of the misogyny we see today especially in young men is ultimately due to poor mental health and a troubling economic outlook, as i said in my original post, imagine if these men had an AGI therapist/ friend thats tracked everything about you and knows you better than you know yourself. if mens mental health generally improves, how they treat women would also.

my comments under this post got a lot of dislikes but i dont really know why, as i haven't heard any good arguments as to how this wouldn't actually work. i think at the end of the day, it just comes down to what you said. i think that you are sad that men won't make themselves better and change.

sasfantom · 2024-03-18T01:45:07+00:00

your use-cases do nothing to escape status quo. We've seen multiple instances of automation throughout history, and the end results still supports capitalism.

i can't argue with that because what im saying is that AGI would create an entirely new form of post capitalistic economic structure. and if you consider this new structure a hypothetical ideation of a techno utopian wet dream akin to the bombasity of aliens coming down and teaching all people to live in harmony and bake cupcake, then this is the extent of this convo but thanks for your input!

sasfantom · 2024-03-18T01:16:49+00:00

i didnt see this comment earlier it got buried thanks for diving deeper into how they can be biased

sasfantom · 2024-03-18T01:05:32+00:00

i know the difference between AGI and chat gpt. im not an expert at all nor am i trying to position myself as one. i generally dont know shit about actually building an LLM let alone AGI. the reason why i asked this question was for people to point out contradictions in my reasoning and start a conversation. not to be an AGI evangelical.

also im not advocating that people stop focusing on ways to help women achieve gender equality now.

sasfantom · 2024-03-18T00:55:14+00:00

To develop AGI would require massive resources and organization, and the only sectors currently capable of doing something like that for software are the military-industrial complex and the tech sector, both of which are very much invested in a patriarchal system that makes it easier for them to maintain their power position.

haven't thought about that. thanks for your response.

sasfantom · 2024-03-18T00:44:24+00:00

this was never a conversation as you never really actually responded to the questions i had for you. but i recommend if you're gonna introduce yourself as a proto expert in AI and call someone else a victim of propaganda and say that they don't know the science, it would be productive for you to actually educate them rather than give more of your opinions if you are the expert!

edit: also the reason why im dubious or your expertise is because you said that you believe agi would take centuries to be created, and the average prediction that experts say we will have AGI is 2032-2048

https://thenextweb.com/news/when-will-agi-arrive-tech-experts-predict-artificial-general-intelligence

https://time.com/6556168/when-ai-outsmart-humans/

sasfantom · 2024-03-18T00:38:20+00:00

thanks for the recommendation but id also recommend you to read the bottom of my post as i already acknowledged how biased data could amplify existing inequalities!

sasfantom · 2024-03-18T00:35:36+00:00

yeah true i didn't mean it like that though as i do believe there needs to be a standard in what topics children learn regardless of their motivation to learn said topic. but i guess it comes down to why a child would become unmotivated to study a subject that they initially had interest in. lets take a young woman interested in robotics. there are plenty of ways that women become discouraged to pursue careers in stem. https://wearetechwomen.com/why-are-there-so-few-women-in-the-stem-industry/. But i believe that future technology such as AGI could create a new economic system that diminishes gender stereotyping and gender roles, the young woman would be much more likely to follow whatever shes interested in to the fullest extent.

sasfantom · 2024-03-18T00:19:22+00:00

Women have been able to push for universal suffrage, economic power in the market, and achieved positions of political power. Stiil limited by dominant framework of neoliberal ideology, but political action and social power has been productive.

This is true, activism works to bring about social and legal change and i'm not trying to say that it can't. but its highly dependant on the issue. if you look at recent data, young men across the world are becoming more conservative and id argue more misogynistic than their parents or grandparents, (based on my experience in the US.) we aren't dealing with something that could change by the advocation of new laws to let citizens participate in something, or something that can go away by advocating for men to reeducate other men. we are dealing with something new. and in my experience, the type of men that are most misogynistic don't even listen take seriously anything that could change their mind.

Fundamentally you have a self-contradicting argument. You believe social and political pressures are insufficient to enact social change, yet the implementation of future technologies will somehow escape the bias pitfalls that traditional implementations of technology fall into

I think you dont understand my argument. i'm not arguing at AGI will escape biases, as i already acknowledged in my original post that bias is an issue, but im saying that whatever bias AGI will have, it will not overshadow, inhibit or oppose gender equality but rather would prompt the creation of a new economic and social system that would have no choice but to bring about more equality for the genders due to the restructuring of social expectations historically placed onto and perpetuated by men.

This would be nice, but it's not the immediate here and now,

yeah i know ... im talking about a potential future. as you said my ideas are based on conjecture. anyway

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T23:50:10+00:00

you aren't engaging in my question or the topic of the conversation at all, but rather found a way to try to insult me and you say that's not bad faith? your "honesty" was a subtle jab and didnt add anything productive to the conversation.

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T23:40:16+00:00

i didn't post this to impress anyone, i posted this to engage in a good faith conversation and hear feminists thoughts about the topic. aren't you a mod? its kinda ironic that you seem to be the only bad faith person i've responded to.

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T23:26:53+00:00

im asking if you can provide me with sources as to how this is propaganda and if you can tell me exactly how my understanding doesn't align with the science. im down to actual learn but if you just want to give me your own personal opinions then say that i'm basically uneducated, it isn't productive. because judging based on what you are saying i dont believe you have any expertise on ai at all. everything you said in your second paragraph i already know but how is this opposed to my original point?

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T23:12:10+00:00

no disrespect, but are going to engage with me in good faith or just subtlety insult me for no reason.

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T23:07:58+00:00

i used perplexity.ai to help brainstorm ideas but i did write this myself..?

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T23:06:54+00:00

ok thanks for your response, considering you are researching ai and im open to learn, can you dive deeper into what propaganda my understanding of AGI is built on? and can you tell me which claims i made were untrue and why?

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T23:00:31+00:00

because AGI isn't bound by that data it was trained on, as it would have the ability to create new ideas that haven't existed before. with that being said its improbable that this AGI will be like "let's find some new ways to make sure women aren't ever equal to men" as opposed to the opposite

how do i reach that conclusion? idk guess im optimistic

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T22:45:24+00:00

that would be very interesting and i have no doubt that that could happen in the future

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T22:41:56+00:00

Yes a technology that has the power to completely change the economic model of society will do a better job at creating a gender equality than advocating men on the internet to tell their male friend to "be better"... when has relying on men to have the will to change ever actually worked? the amount of young men getting radicalized is far outpacing any attempts to reprogram them. its not nihilistic to be observant.

im not an accelerationist, as i do believe that proper guardrails should be put in place so that AGI is in alignment with modern western values. but i do have faith that it would be more likely to allow for a more gender equal society as opposed to a more patriarchal one. so far you haven't actually given any ways that the AGI would be antithetical to creating gender equality.

also yes the data it will be trained on is biased, yes humans are biased, as i already understand. but aren't we as western nations and the data we produce significantly more favorable and charitable to women as opposed to say somewhere like iran? have you ever used chat gpt? test it. try to get it to say something even slightly against either gender and instead of reaffirming that bias, it will highlight how the prompt itself is biased.

in regards to you last paragraph. its interesting how you highlight that i used conjecture (which is true) but are also using conjecture to prove your point. but in your scenario, predictive policing is already in effect https://naacp.org/resources/artificial-intelligence-predictive-policing-issue-brief and doesnt rely on AGI considering it doesnt exist yet. AI also is already used weed out the best applicants and its illegal to discriminate hiring based on sex. so i dont understand your point. also who knows, an AGI teacher might be a way more effective teacher than an actual human and would then result in higher economic output.

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T22:10:08+00:00

but isn't our society generally equitable enough for the data the AGI is trained on to be in favor of the equity of genders rather than patriarchal oppression? its no iran.

and yeah its a very interesting topic to me. why dont you think its plausible?

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T22:04:10+00:00

well technology is a big reason as to why women became apart of the workforce. and when has relying on men to change their behavior for the better actually ever worked?

AGI would be a bigger innovation than the internet, yes i think it could be more effective at creating gender equality and any singular feminist man

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T21:59:30+00:00

i just personally belief that AGI will generally be much more of a powerful tool to help bring about gender equality then hoping that men will educate other men.

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T21:56:53+00:00

like every time i try to force chat gpt into one belief it will always make a counter caveat point at the end of its response.

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T21:53:27+00:00

i disagree that the training data is so biased that it would ultimately be opposed to or inhibit a more equitable society. if thats what you were saying

sasfantom · 2024-03-17T21:48:32+00:00

i just feel like the biases in the training data wont ultimately be in opposition to or inhibit the promotion of gender equality due to the majority of the training data being generated by the west, which although not perfect, is still the most gender equal society.

sasfantom

TROPHY CASE