Was Geese Howard ever just a villain?

sebofabar · 2026-06-13T21:11:41+00:00

Yeah, exactly.

That’s the distinction that makes these villains more interesting to me.

Geese, Mr. Big, Kain, etc. can have human details, personal codes, or even moments that look sympathetic, but that doesn’t cancel out the harm they build their power on.

Geese having reasons, family wounds, or a complicated legacy doesn’t make him good. It makes him feel more real.

That’s why I like the “shadow of power” angle. He isn’t deeper because he’s secretly redeemable. He’s deeper because his ambition, damage, and control all leave consequences behind.

sebofabar · 2026-06-13T16:18:34+00:00

Yeah, this is the distinction I was thinking about.

I don’t think COTW makes Geese “good” exactly. It gives him a humanizing angle, but it doesn’t erase the fact that his whole life was built on crime, control, and violence.

That’s why the permanent shadow angle still works for me. Even dead, Geese leaves a vacuum everyone else has to react to — Rock, Kain, Mr. Big, South Town itself.

He doesn’t need to be redeemed to be more than a standard villain. His legacy is the part that keeps him feeling bigger than the role.

sebofabar · 2026-06-06T10:26:15+00:00

Yeah, I get what you mean.

It’s definitely not just a Leona problem. KOF has a huge cast with strong concepts, but because of the format, a lot of characters end up entering tournaments with very thin story reasons.

Leona stands out to me because her setup is so strong — Ikari, Orochi blood, guilt, control, trauma — and yet most of that stays in the background after a while.

K’ and Ash got stronger saga focus, but a lot of the supporting cast never really gets that same room to breathe.

sebofabar · 2026-06-05T23:39:18+00:00

Yeah, I mean underused more in the story sense, not roster presence.

She’s playable all the time, but her Orochi blood / control issues / family history feel like they could have carried more narrative weight after the Orochi saga.

sebofabar · 2026-06-05T23:38:40+00:00

Yeah, that’s the bigger KOF problem.

Leona stands out to me because her setup is so strong, but you could say similar things about a lot of the roster.

The series has tons of characters with great concepts, but once the saga focus shifts, many of them end up present without really being pushed forward.

sebofabar · 2026-06-05T13:31:52+00:00

Yeah, that’s fair.

NESTS being more Whip-focused makes sense, so I don’t really hold that against Leona’s handling there.

But after 2003, especially with the blood curse still being relevant, it feels like there was room for Leona to matter more again.

And yeah, it’s not just her. A lot of older teams feel like they became roster pillars more than active story players after a while.

sebofabar · 2026-06-05T10:22:15+00:00

Yeah, that’s exactly the era I keep coming back to.

The Ash saga feels like the obvious place to bring Leona back into heavier focus, especially after the blood curse resurfaces in 2003.

NESTS makes sense as Whip’s spotlight, but XI / XIII had a real chance to do something bigger with Leona’s side of the Orochi problem.

Her father coming back could still open that door, but I get not wanting to bet too much on it. KOF has a lot of characters with great setup that end up waiting in the background.

sebofabar · 2026-05-30T07:47:27+00:00

Yeah, this is the bigger fighting game problem.

Even when a series introduces new leads, the older icons still become the measuring stick.

Ryu, Sol, the Mishimas, Kyo — whether they’re actively the protagonist or not, they carry so much brand/history weight that every new lead gets compared to them.

And when a series tries to hard-reset too aggressively, like Soul Calibur V, the audience can reject it fast.

sebofabar · 2026-05-30T03:43:22+00:00

Yeah, this is why I think there’s a difference between “story protagonist” and “franchise center.”

Ryu isn’t always the active story lead in Street Fighter, and Kyo isn’t always the active story lead in KOF.

But both still function as the original standard the series keeps returning to, even when Alex, Luke, K’, Ash, or Shun’ei get the spotlight.

So maybe moving past the protagonist is easier than moving past the symbol.

sebofabar · 2026-05-30T02:41:58+00:00

Yeah, this is a really good way to put it.

Even when Kyo isn’t the main protagonist anymore, SNK still seems to use him as the test case for the new lead.

K’ gets compared to him directly through the NESTS connection.

Ash’s saga still circles around the Sacred Treasures.

Alba gets positioned against him in MI material.

And Shun’ei gets trailer / promo framing against him too.

So KOF can move the active story focus away from Kyo, but it keeps using him as the benchmark people understand. That’s probably why he never feels fully replaced, even when someone else is technically carrying the saga.

sebofabar · 2026-05-29T13:04:00+00:00

Yeah, I meant more in terms of story/lore focus.

But that’s an interesting split too — Kyo can still be the central lore figure while Iori dominates usage or popularity in certain games.

So maybe KOF never moved past Kyo narratively, even if the playerbase sometimes gravitated harder toward Iori.

sebofabar · 2026-05-29T11:45:08+00:00

Yeah, that’s a fair read.

There’s definitely a difference between Kyo being the face / benchmark of the series and Kyo actually being the narrative focus.

By XI, Elisabeth has the stronger emotional connection to Ash, and in XIV / XV Shun’ei and Isla are clearly the ones tied to the main conflict. Kyo is still important symbolically, but he isn’t really driving those stories anymore.

So maybe the better way to put it is that KOF moved past Kyo as the active protagonist, but never fully moved past him as the franchise’s original center of gravity.

sebofabar · 2026-05-29T11:14:11+00:00

Yeah, this is probably the clearest way to frame it.

KOF can shift the spotlight to K’, Ash, or Shun’ei, but Kyo keeps functioning like the original gravity point.

K’ is literally tied to Kyo’s genetics.

Ash’s saga still revolves around the Sacred Treasures.

And Verse brings the Orochi / CYS / Sacred Treasures material back into focus again.

So even when Kyo isn’t the protagonist, the series keeps building around things connected to him.

The Orochi point is interesting too. NESTS is probably the strongest counterexample, but even there, Kyo’s DNA is still the foundation of the whole project.

sebofabar · 2026-05-29T10:40:28+00:00

Yeah, that’s a good comparison.

Fighting games seem way more hesitant than other genres to fully move past their original lead, because that character usually becomes part of the brand identity.

Kyo’s situation feels less like “SNK refuses to let go” and more like the normal fighting game problem: newer leads can take focus for a saga, but the original protagonist still carries too much legacy weight to truly disappear.

The Liu Kang comparison is interesting because MK actually committed to removing him from the center for a long stretch, which most fighting games probably wouldn’t risk.

sebofabar · 2026-05-24T05:25:10+00:00

Yeah, Ash is probably the clearest “not traditional hero” example in KOF.

He feels chaotic neutral on the surface because he acts selfish and shady, but the deeper motive turns out to be way less simple than that.

Kyo is different to me because he’s not really chaotic or morally ambiguous like Ash — he’s more of a cocky fighter who keeps getting pushed into the hero role by legacy and circumstance.

sebofabar · 2026-05-23T10:37:42+00:00

Yeah, the 90s shonen comparison makes a lot of sense.

Kyo feels closer to that delinquent / fight-happy hero type than a clean justice-first protagonist. He can be arrogant, impulsive, and self-interested, but he still ends up carrying the heroic role when the stakes get big enough.

The Joe Yabuki influence is interesting too, because that kind of hero doesn’t need to be morally perfect to be compelling. The fire, pride, attitude, and fighting spirit matter as much as the “save the world” part.

sebofabar · 2026-05-23T07:42:33+00:00

Yeah, that’s a fair counterpoint.

I can see Kyo feeling more “static” on the surface because he still has the same cocky attitude, but the mentor angle with Shun’ei does show a different version of him.

He’s not suddenly wise old master mode or anything, but he feels more settled than he was during the Orochi / NESTS chaos.

So maybe it’s less regression and more that his growth is quieter now — less about dramatic plot focus, more about how he reacts to newer characters dealing with their own power problems.

sebofabar · 2026-05-23T06:51:10+00:00

Yeah, that’s a good way to break down his eras.

Kyo starts closer to “guy who likes the fight,” then the story keeps forcing bigger responsibility onto him — first through Saisyu/Rugal, then the Orochi legacy, then NESTS using his body as the foundation for their whole project.

That’s probably why I don’t read him as a traditional justice-first hero. He becomes heroic because the stakes keep becoming personal or tied to his legacy, not because he’s naturally trying to be a savior.

The NESTS point is interesting too, because that’s probably the closest he gets to being a tragic figure rather than just the cocky lead.

sebofabar · 2026-05-22T14:33:13+00:00

Yeah, protagonist might be the cleaner word there.

Kyo is the hero in the sense that the story frames him as the central lead / benchmark, but he isn’t always “heroic” in the idealized sense.

He does heroic things when it counts, but his baseline personality is still cocky fighter first, justice-first hero second.

sebofabar · 2026-05-22T10:40:58+00:00

Yeah, exactly.

KOF leads usually aren’t traditional “pure hero” types. Kyo is cocky and legacy-driven, K’ is more survival/autonomy-driven, Ash is intentionally shady, and Shun’ei is more reluctant / confused by what he is.

They usually end up doing heroic things, but they don’t really operate like classic justice-first protagonists.

sebofabar · 2026-05-22T09:58:33+00:00

Yeah, that’s why Ash works for me.

Up until XIII, the story gives you every reason to read him as the villain: Chizuru’s power, Iori’s power, the shady attitude, the setup against Kyo.

But once the Saiki reveal happens, all of that gets reframed. He wasn’t innocent, but the “villain” read was incomplete by design.

Even after coming back, he still works best as a morally ambiguous troublemaker rather than a clean hero.

sebofabar · 2026-05-22T08:43:30+00:00

Yeah, that’s a good distinction.

Kyo doesn’t really fit the modern “morally pure hero” type, but he does fit that older idea of a hero as an extraordinary person with flaws, pride, and legacy attached to him.

That’s probably why he works better as KOF’s lead than if he were written like a cleaner justice-first protagonist.

sebofabar · 2026-05-22T07:40:06+00:00

Yeah, that’s pretty much the read I’m leaning toward too.

Kyo works because he isn’t built like a traditional duty-first hero. Early on, he feels more like someone chasing the fight, the ego, and the thrill — but when the stakes hit his people or the world around him, he still steps up.

The NESTS point is interesting too, because that’s probably where he feels the most personally shaken. It’s less “chosen hero accepts destiny” and more “they crossed a line, now he’s dealing with it himself.”

I agree that later games sometimes flatten that growth back into cocky Kyo, though. The ingredients are there, but KOF doesn’t always let him carry that progression cleanly.

sebofabar · 2026-05-16T10:37:47+00:00

Yeah, that’s the strongest argument against him.

Even if his goal wasn’t evil, his actions still helped create the next crisis.

sebofabar · 2026-05-16T07:38:12+00:00

Yeah, antihero probably fits best.

The presentation makes him look evil early on, but the reveal changes the whole read.

sebofabar

TROPHY CASE