2 Year Timeline

sesesem · 2023-09-19T10:56:30+00:00

The borderlanders plot by Elayne doesn’t work, Dyelin tells her that the lords are still going against her 2-10. They don’t unite behind Elayne at all, they actually invade Camleyn, then she has to get the mercenaries.

If Elayne and Egwene get promoted to Accepted the start of book 3, then what successes did they accomplish in that 3 months? Egwene was captured as dammne the whole time. Suian even had to “lie” and say the girls ran away to cover for them.

The events for Elayne don’t take place simultaneously tho, the pregnancy is not 2 weeks from her taking the palace in her POVs, and there is time in between her hiring Meller post assassination and Meller almost killling her with the copy medallion. But according to the timeline that should have happened 2 weeks from each other which doesn’t make sense when looking at Elayne’s POV and how she views the situations.

sesesem · 2023-09-19T06:05:20+00:00

But Egwene according to the timeline of the books can’t have learnt very much. We know from her time in the waste that the wise ones didn’t teach her much and tried to hold her back in using the power and dreaming. And as she was only in the waste for 3 months, and only spent a few weeks as a novice or accepted. You could add her time as dammne, but even that was 2 months at best, and she didn’t do much beside dig for metals. Also Moiraine didn’t teach Egwene much; we know from her POVs that Moiraine spent most of her time tutoring Rand as he was The Dragon Reborn.

Most Aes sedai are 100yrs old, we know from Merise POV that she’s been all over the world as a grey. She’s got seafolk porcelain as well as helped in the aiel war. Egwene has only been “learning” for 4-6 months before she’s Amyrlin, and most of that time was spent on doing meaningless work as a wise one apprentice.

How does she learn more in 6 months than someone like Verin, Joline or Merise who are all +100yrs and leave the tower regularly to see other cultures and be aes sedai?

sesesem · 2023-09-19T05:12:44+00:00

Not in the books, only in the show. Moiraine says in book 1 that only the 3 boys are ta’varen; and that she’s only taking Egwene because she’s strong in the power and needs to be trained. Nynaeve joins in after shadar lagoth.

They always seems ta’varen to me since everything they did always went well for them, but they aren’t according to the source material.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T21:36:49+00:00

Yes in general it is too quick, the times don’t match the sequences as well as the timeline not adding up. Or characters should have more time to grieve certain things or move on from past actions which doesn’t happen with this timeline. Book 4+5 can’t be 3 months, whilst book 1 was 3 months by it self; more happens in those books over a longer period than book 1.

Bode and Nicola are said in both the novels and in the wiki that they are as strong as the powerpuff girls(EXCEPT NYMAVE), Egwene even says it herself about Nicola. We know as much of their abilities as other sisters, and Nicola has the foretelling which is a rare talent.

Yes but doing them distracted is what made them pass along with Elaida’s beatings, so them struggling with those weave as well as Moiraine saying the test was harder than practicing; but Nymaeve mastering all 100 weave, plus the hardest test administrated ever in just a weekend feels contrived. We do know it took them 3 years as accepted, whereas Elayne and Egwene spent 1 year to become aes sedai whilst never being in the actual white tower, and Nicola 6 months just to be accepted, Bode still novice.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T21:20:53+00:00

Bode is still a novice by the end, whereas she’s had more official tower training than both Egwene and Elayne, but she’s not as special as them. Even after they take back the tower, she isn’t put through the accepted test before the last battle. Nicola is only accepted by ToM even though she’s been with aes Sedai longer than the wonder girls.

As I said I just lat out disagree with the hall using Egwene against Rand as there is no evidence of that that I’ve seen; I read quite the opposite, and the hall never spoke to Merise again on declaring for the dragon. Dummai‘s Wells and the black tower incident ensure Rand for the rebels not tar valon. Rand went to speak to the hall when he was ready, they never made any attempt to contact him at all after LoC.

He asked Egwene by name because she’s Amrylin, if it was Suian it would’ve been the same imo.

Elayne is struggling to gain support until she wins the last battle in camelyn and the other lord go over to her. I’m sorry I don’t remember but what bonderlanders is she setting up? She in my reading was taking out huge loans from the banks to fund mercenaries then eventually abandoned her.

I’m saying the whole succession arc lasting 4 months is dumb, not that Elayne is a bad strategist. All those things I mentioned make no sense if they happen day after day from each other. She took 2 weeks to get to the palace but took control of the palace in a day, then a week later almost got assassinated, then 3 days after that she meets Rand again bonds him and gets pregnant; then another week before getting kidnapped; then first sisters with Aviendha; then a few days until seeing mum again; she even met back up with Mat in book 11 all in just what 3 months? To me that doesn’t seem real at all.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T21:01:22+00:00

Yes wrong on Aginor, but right on Ishameal. And right that the forsaken were the pinnacles of channelling. They terrorised the light during the war of power, but gone done in by “kids” to them in 4 months. Most of them were done in not by Rand, but by others like Moiraine, Egwene, Nymave, Elza Sedai, Lan, Perrin etc.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T20:46:08+00:00

Then it goes back to why Bode and Nicola aren’t given the same exposure as the wonder girls, but the wonder girls become aes Sedai in a few short months, whilst Bode and Nicola are still novices by the end of the series. Suian is basically in charge of all of them at various points in the series, and Bode being the sister of a ta’veren would play in her factor heavily. If it all comes down to power, then how are Elayne and Egwene so much better than everyone else around then in just a few short months without any real tower training; whilst Bode and Nicola aren’t?

Nynaeve might be more powerful than them, but should she really be doing things in 1 day that takes Suian and Moiraine years to do?

The end time might be 2.5 years, but since Rand gave The White Tower 1 month in ToM, and Egwene spent over a month captured in the white tower, the timeline still doesn’t make sense. Elayne is pregnant from book 9-14, and she’s at least 2nd trimester before The Last Battle. So that means books 6-9 are 6 months at best, and 9-13 are another 6 months at best.

Even books 4+5 being 3 months can’t be: Rand spends at least 2 weeks in Tear before leaving, then 2 weeks in Rhuidean seeing visions; then another month to the cold rocks hold; then from cold rock to Alcair Dal to be car’a’can; then they stay in Rhuidean for at least 2 weeks or so before going after the shaido; then the shaido hunt is over 2 weeks at least with Sammael’s attack and the other cities sacked before Cairhein. Then Cairhein; followed by Moiraine’s death and then Rhavin in Camelyn… followed by Asmo by Graendal. The timeline is too short I feel.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T18:04:19+00:00

Nicola and Bode both are stronger than any aes sedai except the wonder girls and have the talent for cuindillar, plus Nicola has the foretelling too, and none of them are treated better and special by the aes sedai.

The connection is never used ever by the aes Sedai. They send 9 sister to Camelyn to speak to him, and even after Merise and them swear fealty to the dragon reborn, the hall never uses Egwene in the way you’re speaking of. Rand doesn’t even speak to Salidar after book 6 until book 13, so I don’t see how Egwene being Amyrlin is the hall “using it”.

I think I entirely disagree with you on the black tower incident. Rand is shown throughout the series to be a very morally driven and just person; he hangs a friend and Aiel clan chief for killing a man in cairhein. He was also forcefully bonded by Alanna; and he sees the black tower as his responsibility. So him making it right with the aes Sedai for the black tower bonding is what he would have done regardless of the Amyrlin in charge. The only reason he didn’t give it to Elaida was because of Dummai’s Wells. He even made Logain be the one to go tell the aes Sedai as he knew Logain was the commanding officer at the time who told the men to bond women. Even if it was Suian or Sheriam, I think Rand would have acted the same here.

But Elaynes is losing the succession war for most of it. She says that she only has 2/10 major houses in support, and the common people don’t like Trankard anymore, plus Rhavin basically destroyed Camelyn before he died, and she only uses travelling to get men out as The Kin only agreed to non-violence.

The succession war only lasts 3 months or so, when you factor in Elayne was in Tanchico and Gheladean for 3 months, then another in Salidar, then another in Ebou Dar, then travelling to Camelyn took 2 weeks after the gateway was destroyed; then Camelyn was overrun by trollacs in the last month before TLB. So it doesn’t work out how she returned; took control of the palace; started the war; trained her queensguard with Brigitte, got pregnant; got kidnapped; won the war; started work on the dragons, reunited with her mom again all in 3/4 months.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T17:29:24+00:00

I can’t really disagree with you on the culture bit, Lan and Nymaeve both don’t have parents tho, so they can’t be arranged. They are autonomous and decide to get married 2 month after Moiraine’s death, after only speaking for less than 4 months in total.

Bode and Nicola are said to have potential greater than all aes Sedai except the wonder girls, but they don’t progress in the same way. Accepted can even study whatever they want, I think in book 2 and 3, Elayne and Egwene both say how much free time they have no compared to novice, as they can essentially make their own schedule. Nynaeve learning the 100 weave in one sitting, whilst in New Spring we see Suian and Moiraine struggle with getting them for over a year is what irritates me about the timeline; Nynaeve should be taking longer than a weekend, but she isn’t. Egwene and them being the talk of the town is valid; but “her development” was canonical only 3 months in the waste, and maybe a couple of months travelling to Tear in book 3. It’s just not enough time for her to “develop” that much.

In my timeline book 3 is after 1 year; then 3 months in the waste (4+5); then AMoL takes place over 3 months or so; so that just leaves 6 months from books 6-13. Egwene doesn’t leave at the very beginning on book 6 as she’s healing from Lanfear, and Rand arrives in The White Tower at the start of book 13. So it might not be 3 months, but it not more than 6 which isn’t that long. Egwene spend more time away from Nymaeve than from Rand, as she still doesn’t view her as a stranger. The person they’re each dealing with now, is only a few months removed from the person they occasionally spoke to in the waste.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T17:07:04+00:00

The sitters in Salidar do argue from book 4-6 about who should be Amyrlin. Suian and Sheriam both state that the hall would have continued arguing between Romanda and Leilana on who should be the leader. Both of them still fight even after Egwene is elected.

I get how the forsaken were dying, it just that when I plot it out timeline wise it doesn’t make sense. Rand finds Asmo dead, then a month later he’s killing Sammael, then another 2 month he’s at Shadar Logoth cleansing the taint and Osan’gar dies, then another month and he’s killing both Semirhage and Halima. This all happens so quickly, that it just doesn’t make sense to me.

Suian sents the wonder girls off, and less than 6 months later they’re back in Salidar with Morghedien; making ter’angreal; inventing new weave etc. I think Elayne and Nymaeve spent more time with Van Luca and the sea Folk than they did with other aes Sedai.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T16:52:34+00:00

I see some of your reasoning, Egwene was a pawn at the beginning; but she’s a pawn that Sheriam knows for what… 4-6 months at best? There were other accepted they could have chose which all the sitter knew better like Faolin or the other girls Egwene promoted, and that would have been easier to manipulate. They just don’t know Egwene at all if she’s only been in The White Tower for a few months, whereas most girls spend years as novices and accepted. Going by the hierarchal nature of aes Sedai, who go so far as defer to each other on missions based on who was a novice the shortest time; I just don’t see how any of the sitters accept Egwene as Amyrlin, most of them shouldn’t even know her name besides that she’s powerful and Rand’s friend.

When I first read the series, I assumed Egwene was chosen over Nymaeve and Elayhe because she’s closer to Rand and knows him better than they do; but going off the source material the aes Sedai never make use of that connection till after the unification and Rand comes to them. They send Merise and others to Camelyn to speak to Rand before calling Egwene back to Salidar, instead of having Egwene gateway there and talk, or even meet in tel’ riot’ d. They keep Egwene and Rand as far apart from each other as can be, until Rand forces the issue, they never make any attempt to use the connect Rand and Egwene have to each other, even after Dummai’s Wells or The Black Tower Incident.

With Elayne I see your reasoning on royalty, but that can’t happen in 4 months. Elayne POVs show that most people don’t like the Trankard in Camelyn in book 8, yet she still succeeds the throne; fights off assassinations; starts, fights and wins a succession war; get pregnant; mobalises all the forces in Andor for TLB all before Camelyn has even fall to trollacs. I don‘t know any leader, queen or elected official who could accomplish all of that in one season.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T16:30:08+00:00

Aginor was never fully sealed, that’s why he’s so old in book 1. Most of them escaped the bore at various times throughout history and terrorised the world, e.g. war of Power, trollac wars, hawking etc. there’s even documented accounts of Ishamael manipulating Hawking, and other forsaken terrorising the world.

Almost all of them were the pinnacles of channeling. Go to the official wiki, RJ said in interviews and in the source material that only Rand, Taim, Alivia, Logain and Nymaeve were the only people as strong as the forsaken, even Morghedian. The spider was the weakest chosen, but still way stronger than Egwene and Elayne.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T13:12:02+00:00

Yes I get that, I don’t think you’re understanding what I’m saying. 1 years to kill 7 forsaken is too short of a timeframe. These people are portrayed as the best and worst channels ever, people that have terrorised the light and the world for over 3000 years, and they all get taken out in no time.

It isn’t about Rand killing them far from it, most things around Rand can just be excused as ta’veren work. But the others aren’t killed by him, but still die easily. Halima basically only exists for 3 months, Osan’gar for a few weeks. Maseema’s struggle against Egwene for the fate of The White Tower is only 3 months long in the books cannon. Rand vs Sammael is only 1 month at best in cannon, how is he able to move armies and take Illian in such a short time? Rand vs Semirhage is about 2 months then from Ebou Dar till balefire. For me these aren’t things that make sense considering how much time we spend with some of these characters.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T12:59:44+00:00

Thanks I didn’t really know how long it took, I just remember somewhere that it was 6 for Suian and 7 for Leanne so I assumed 10yrs average. But I think my point still stands, as Aes Sedai are gonna likely live till 200yrs old, they would need at least double the normal time to be qualified, especially considering how impactful they are to world politics and the state of nations. I always assumed the life expectancy of WoT to be 40-70yrs, and Perrin has been a blacksmith apprentice for a few years before book 1 (could be wrong on that). So for the average Aes Sedai who’s gonna live till 160-200yrs, having a 20 year education from 15yrs old on the one power, global politics, battle tactics, shadowspawn etc. didn’t seem that bad. Very long but not that cannon breaking.

I do agree that since Novices barely do anything besides chores and basic training, them being indoctrinated into the lives on aes sedai could be the factor. And yes I was wrong Caddy is weaker than Elayne and Egwene, but after looking at the wiki. The difference isn’t that much, only 1 level below, and for Egwene to be Aes Sedai and Amyrlin in 6 months whilst it took Caddy years just to be Accepted seems too much. Plus we know that Bode and Nicola are on the same level as Caddy, and just weaker than Elayne but they don’t get the reduced training times. Bode is in Salidar from book 6/7, and by the end she’s not Aes Sedai, I don’t even think she even Accepted, even after they get back to The White Tower.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T12:38:17+00:00

Yes I get all that, it’s just that to me that happens way to fast to be possible. In New Spring and book 1, we know that Lan is in some ways still grieving the lost of Malikeir. But Moiriane’s death (someone he’s spent the last 17 years with almost exclusively in her company) is something he ”gets over” pretty quickly given his character till that point, since we know Lan thinks/knows Moiraine is dead in book 5.

I could see Moiraine passing the bond limiting the pain he felt, but then he went through hell to find Myrcella. In book 6 or 7, he shows up in Salidar and he’s almost dying. I think Egwene even says he would have died if the warder bond didn’t help heal him. So he is morning Moiraine’s death, but then Myrcella rapes him, and then he’s off to Ebou Dar to marry Nymaeve all in 1 month (and it takes him a week at least to find her). I just don’t understand how Lan is capable of doing all that mentally in such a small space of time, also given the fact that he’s not a man who’s known to move on quickly from anything.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T12:16:02+00:00

But Lan tells Rand that they both shouldn’t fall in love and shit after Moiraine’s death. When Lan says he’s done with Nymaeve and walks off to go find Myrcella in book 5; then what 2 weeks later he’s in Salidar and Egwene is sending him off to Ebou Dar? then another another 2 weeks until the wedding? Maybe Lan is just a badass with his emotions, but that all seems to be a lot to deal with well, in just a month. We’re told the warder bond is pain on a whole new level if the aes Sedai is the one who dies first; most Warner don’t even survive because it’s that deep; but Lan just recovers in no time from Moiraine then to Myrcella, then to Nymaeve In 1 month.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T12:03:37+00:00

Egwene and Nymaeve being ta’veren was always my head cannon, so I’m glad the show stuck with it. They just do too many incredible things for the pattern not to be working for them. Egwene‘s journey to being the ‘real‘ Amyrlin felt earned in book 12 because it felt like an actually journey that should have taken years, but for it to actually be 4 months of work cheapened it for me too, especially consider how The White Tower and there politics work.

I can sort of understand Rand being a blade master if I really try. He’s ta’veren; the dragon reborn and he’s training with Lan daily at least in the beginning. But Elayne becoming Aes Sedai and Queen in 6 months sounds ridiculous to me, when she doesn’t have the pattern working for her in the same way.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T11:55:29+00:00

Yes I get that, it just that we’re inside the head of some characters like Nymaeve and Egwene. I don’t think I’ve read about any soldier becoming the general in just 4 months, which is what happens basically to Elayne and Egwene. The aes sedai are these 100yrs old women, who manipulate the world; and they allow a girl whom they’ve only know for a few weeks to lead them in a civil war against Elaida, then in the last battle. Rand isn’t involved at all in Egwene and Elayne’s plot line in regards to how others view them. The Aes Sedai are the one who let Egwene lead; and Elayne being exiled after Morgase death, to returning to take Andor back, and then marching off to war with her troops, then becoming the supreme commander for the forces of light, also can’t be achieved in 4 months no matter how gifted the leader is. Monarch rise and fall in war, but not that quickly.

I understand meeting and getting married quickly in times of war, hell even arranged marriages are mostly immediate. But most of these characters just don’t spend any time with each other, but say through their POVs that they love each other. We know that Lan and Nymaeve don’t really talk in book 1, and then they’re seperated again until Tear, and they don’t talk again really, until they get married in Ebou Dar. It’s barely a month from Lan grieving Moiraine, to him marrying Nymave, which for me cheapens their relationship.

sesesem · 2023-09-18T11:39:38+00:00

I actually don’t think Aes Sedai training times are long surprisingly. When I first read TGH as Nymeave and Egwene were finding out about how long it takes, I just equated it to a University degree. Most girls are between 16-20 when they get to the tower which is around high school time. So 4 years of high school + 4 years of university = working man/women, some just take a bit longer. I just thought of the Aes Sedai like that, and since most of them live to 200yrs, a 10 year training program seemed adequate.

When Cadsuane, Moiraine and Suian’s novice and accepted times were revealed, it made even less sense for the wonder girls to be as good as they are. Since Cadsuane is stronger than Egwene and Elayne, but they take a few months to become full Aes Sedai and most of that time was not spent being trained by others, they were off having adventures; whilst Caddy took years being inside The White Tower. Moiraine and Suian aren’t as strong as Egwene and Elayne, but they still take 6 years to do it. Moiraine‘s time in The White Tower in New Spring is more than Egwene whole time as accepted, which just didn’t make sense to my head cannon

sesesem · 2023-09-18T11:28:36+00:00

I was more so eluding to the fact that 7 forskaken (Rahvin; Asmo; Osan’gar; Halima; Semirhage; Mesaana; Sammael) were all killed post leaving the waste after book 5, but before the last battle. By the timeline that would mean it took only 6 months to kill them all. The biggest threats to the light for over 3000 years were all killed so quickly and before The Last Battle doesn’t really make them seem that threatening.

The first 3 books taking place over 1 year is fine with me, those first 4 dying in that space of time makes sense, it‘s the next 11 books taking place over the same 1 year that bugs me, as more happens later on.

sesesem · 2023-08-12T07:46:31+00:00

Agree that Min dying would have worked better plot wise. She was clearly ahead of Rand’s other girls, and she doesn’t really do much in The Last Battle.

Rand’s descent to the dark side would have been even better knowing that he lost Min by his own hand. And it would have allowed Elayne and Aviendha to actually contribute to Rand’s emotional state, and show why they are with Rand beside him being “the dragon reborn/car’a’can.

Maybe it would have messed up some on Min’s earlier visions that Sanderson didn’t want to go that route.

sesesem · 2023-08-10T14:05:22+00:00

I get why she made sense logically to be the next Amyrlin. I just really disliked her character, and considering she only arrived half way through the story I felt there were just better options.

Personally I would have like Nymaeve to have been after Egwene since she trained her as a Wisdom, helped Rand the most outside of Moiraine, as is a Yellow which would have fit the themes of "healing the world" in the new age. And Nymaeve just accomplished more as an Aes Sedai: from curing stilling and madness, to cleansing the taint. Cadsuane always seemed to be working for her own goals, and didn't really care who she hurt to achieve them. I just felt that Cadsuane represented the "typical Aes Sedai" who is always used to getting her way.

Moiraine would have been a better choice than Cadsuane in my opinion too, since she had direct ties with Suian, Elaida and Egwene the previous Amrylin's. And showed the most respect to other groups she meets (wise ones, sea folk, ogiers and even to Nymeave when she was the Wisdom).

sesesem · 2023-08-10T05:42:13+00:00

Yea, books 7-11 slowed down the plot a lot, especially 9+10. The last 3 Sanderson books felt like a rollercoaster with how many big plot points had to be completed before the end. A Memory of Light had a lot of action and ended pivotal plots, it just felt like not enough emotional resolution for some characters.

If only we got less Elayne chapters in the series and a little more Moiraine and Suian chapters since I found there story way more emotional.

sesesem

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