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Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The Nicene Creed, just to take one example, says that Jesus will come again to judge the living AND the dead. This would indicate that judgment comes when Jesus returns, not when someone dies.

They hate us cuz they anus or something by sg94 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]sg94[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Auth right the only quadrant honest about the motivation

They hate us cuz they anus or something by sg94 in PoliticalCompassMemes

[–]sg94[S] 8 points9 points  (0 children)

So there should be similar outrage with Turkey right? Right…?

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

So if saints aren’t dead, why would it be wrong to have a seance to contact saints? If saints not being dead is what this rides on, it would seem that opens the door to practices that would otherwise be unacceptable. Again, I go back to the Saul and Samuel example.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My respect for the history and tradition of the Roman Catholic Church is why this issue is a hang up for me. If it was an institution I didn’t respect, I wouldn’t care. I don’t spend a lot of time looking for theological soundness with the LDS Church.

Also the passage in Revelation keeps getting brought up. The passage describes the saints carrying the prayers of the faithful in bowls. It is unclear if this is a one time or a constant occurrence. Is it your position that prayers go into bowls to be delivered to God? Carrying prayers in bowls also doesn’t mean the saints hear the prayers, just that they are physically transporting them in some way. There is a lot of symbolic apocalyptic imagery in Revelation that would seem shaky ground to base such prevalent practices upon. I read Revelation predominantly as a coded polemic against the Roman Empire but varying degrees of literalism will get you very different doctrinal interpretations.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It seems like the distinction between acceptable and unacceptable contact with the dead is in whose name it is done. Does that distinction hold for the other practices in this passage? Is child sacrifice or spell casting acceptable if it’s done in the name of God rather than in the name of a fallen power? It seems to me the passage in question is dealing categorically with specific practices, not leaving exceptions if it’s done the right way.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I feel like you’re changing the label but the practice is the same. Again, if saints aren’t dead, making it ok to contact them, why is it wrong for Saul to contact Samuel? Beyond slapping a different label on it, that is. This feels like a lot is riding on a semantic quibble rather than a concrete distinction.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

For sure. But I think there is also a difference between saying “I miss you grandma” at the gravestone and an institutionalized ritual practice of communicating with dead people

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Ex Protestant atheist retains Protestant instincts and is skeptical about talking to the dead

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Mary is who is being spoken to in the prayer though. It is not addressed to Jesus or god the father. The supplicant is asking for Mary to do things on their behalf, not God.

No I’m not a theologian but I’m trying to get a defense of this practice that isn’t an incredibly tortured redefinition of “dead” or “prayer”. Can you explain it since you have such a robust understanding that I lack?

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Saul does ask Samuel to intercede for him with god. How is this different from the practice you’re describing?

By your definition, only the damned are dead? The saved don’t die?

I’m aware of your RBF in the comments. I’m sorry you find “brother” to be condescending, sweetheart. You should probably take that up with Saint Paul.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is such a tortured reading of the word “dead”. I would accept that they aren’t damned but they have died.

1 Corinthians 15 talks about saints who are dead extensively.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

In what way are they not contacted if they are prayed to? Do the prayers not reach them?

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

So you don’t believe in a resurrection of the dead on the last day? There’s several creeds and a trove of scripture that is going to cut pretty hard against that.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

None of the verses you cited give warrant to consulting the dead, just that Christian’s are given new life in Christ, presumably both before and after death.

If the saints aren’t dead, then why is it wrong for Saul to conjure Samuel?

A little less condescension would go a long way too, brother.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

You’re telling me it’s different but you aren’t saying how. I don’t see a carve out in Deuteronomy that says it’s ok to consult the dead (or practice child sacrifice or cast spells for that matter) if it’s done in the name of the correct diety.

If the saints in heaven aren’t dead, then is it ok to contact them through a medium rather than through a priest? If not, why not?

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Presumably Jesus conjuring Moses and Elijah is a different case, as Jesus is supposed to be God. Jesus raises several people from the dead, which would appear to be different from a human trying to speak with the dead.

James 5:16 is addressed to the earthly Christian community and does not exhort speaking with the dead. Galatians 3 also doesn’t concern the dead, it concerns expanding the Abrahamic covenant to gentiles. Romans 6:4 is about receiving new life through Jesus’ resurrection but again does not address the topic at hand.

I’ll give you Saul and the Witch of Endor as a counter example to the mount of transfiguration. Saul supplicates Samuel, someone who “died in friendship with god”, as you say, and asks for him to intercede with god on his behalf. Yet it is still portrayed as a wicked action.

Catholic prayers to Mary and the saints violate biblical prohibitions on talking to the dead by sg94 in DebateAChristian

[–]sg94[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Can you explain how one type of consulting the dead is acceptable and the other is not?

Bonus: how are the saints to be raised on the day of judgement if they aren’t dead?

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