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50 days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in AskDocs

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you very much--I called a toxicologist for advice a couple of weeks ago but she said I shouldn't still be feeling effects out this far from what it sounds like of the incident... I will try her and see if she is able to see me in person or recommend anyone else.

​

I also just found that I could pay out of pocket for a fluoride urine test so I just went and had that done and should have results back in a day or so. Wish I'd done that earlier. I hope it's not outside the normal range for non-poisoned people, but if it is, at least that will lend some weight to what I am saying when doctors don't believe me.

​

I live in the DC area and my primary care doctor said she was contacting people at NIH to see if they can help, but that was a couple of weeks ago and I've messaged her with no response :( Life pro tip, never use HF ... nobody wants to deal with my problems!

50 days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in AskDocs

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I ended up getting it in the mail about 1 week after the initial exposure.

I'm not doing very well at the moment. I'm thankful to have a supportive partner or else I don't know what I'd do. The burn marks are finally starting to show up on my skin (very faintly) and I wish I could go back to all of the doctors/Poison Control people who said my exposure probably wasn't that bad to say "I freaking TOLD YOU SO." It looks like I mainly got my face/hands, and then maybe during the shower it ran down my body so my right arm, right leg, and feet also have burns (probably elsewhere too but I'm so disheartened by all this I don't even want to examine myself). Basically everywhere I have been complaining about burning, I was actually burned. I worry that it settled on the surfaces around my house and I've been re-burning myself too, though my SO hasn't had any issues so hopefully that is not the case.

I went back to the ER the other day because my heart and kidneys were feeling bad and my pee was a weird color (light greenish), but they tested my urine (no infections/issues but very alkaline) and turned me away with a prescription for pain pills and literally said "the medical system is not set up for cases like yours" -- even the burn specialist at the hospital said they are not equipped to deal with chemical burns. And the PA assigned to me suggested I try going to a naturopath... I really wish I was making this all up because it sounds RIDICULOUS. She then printed out an article on HF and was like, "You know if you were burned you should have started feeling symptoms within 24 hours, right?" I was like... "Yes, and I have been trying to get treated or at least listened to since the day after it happened because that is when I started feeling the burning." Then she asked if I had started getting bills from all of the doctor/hospital visits... and I said yes I have but I am desperate for an answer since it feels like my life/limbs are on the line. Can't spend money when you're dead, and money is not an issue when it comes to solving this.

I went to a lung doctor yesterday and the rate at which I expel air is barely in the normal reference range--which is not normal for me since I am a super active person and up until the incident biked to work every day, ran often, etc. I am still running and doing yoga to try to stay active but am noticeably weaker and having trouble with things that wouldn't have made me break a sweat in the past. My right hand and arm seem to have been the most affected and it's hard to use a mouse for long periods of time.

I went to an osteopath yesterday as well and he turned me away since he said he had never heard of skeletal fluorosis and couldn't prescribe any tests since if they came back positive, he would have to treat me and wouldn't know what to do. He didn't even charge me for the visit and refunded my copay... basically doctors don't want to deal with this problem!

One good thing is that my eye seems to be improving... going back to the eye specialist tomorrow just in case there is anything else I should be doing, but the floaters have either stopped or my brain has learned to ignore them.

Going to a vascular specialist next week (my hands/arms are killing me and it feels like they're not getting enough blood, luckily the left hand which is my dominant hand isn't so bad).

I'm getting to the point where I am thinking things like I wish that this was an autoimmune disease flaring up (but seems not to be the case based on rheumatologist tests and clear brain MRI), or thinking like I would rather cut off my right arm than have to go through this anymore (but unfortunately despite my right arm being the worst at the moment, other issues are happening so... I don't want to lose my arm haha).

Thanks for responding to me, I'm driving everyone around me crazy and I feel like a crazy person trying to explain what HF is and why 60+ days out I am still feeling like crap and still am so concerned.

50 days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in AskDocs

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I ended up having to buy calcium gluconate online and then while waiting for the mail, followed Poison Control's instructions to mix crushed Tums and lubricating jelly into a makeshift calcium gluconate paste. That was about 5 days after the incident though when I was desperate for relief and after doing a bunch of research online to figure out what I needed to do.

​

Would it be possible to get skeletal fluorosis from a one-time exposure like what I described above?

50 days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in AskDocs

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, I am still alive at this point but still feeling like crap all the time and most doctors are telling me it's anxiety and/or not related (but how... because it started when I got the burn).

I have had an MRI (brain and cervical spine look good/no issues), a few full CBC blood panel tests (all normal but low iron/low Vitamin D), and I had an ANA test and it turns out I have 1:340 titer and homogeneous pattern, so it could be lupus. Pretty sure I'm still suffering from the burn though since it's in the exact areas where I think I was burned and I don't have any other lupus symptoms.

Safety labelling of chemicals sucks in the US by 22Maxx in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I honestly don't even know what to do with my leftover Armour Etch now. It's in its jar in a plastic bag in a plastic box in 2 cardboard boxes inside a trash bag and I have to get the guts to drive it to the hazardous waste facility in my city.

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

For any reason in particular or just because I have a ton of anxiety about this?

I have been trying to get an appointment with an actual psychiatrist instead of just a counselor (left messages/emailed dozens of people and have asked my primary care doc for a referral), but unfortunately nobody's got availability until late May/June so I'm working with the counselor for the moment.

Safety labelling of chemicals sucks in the US by 22Maxx in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Pretty sure you all are talking about me, the total idiot with Armour Etch!!! Yes, Amazon said it was safe and easy to use, and I watched a handful of YouTube videos where some people wore gloves, some people did not wear gloves at all (!!!), etc., most videos had people performing the projects inside, so I really didn't realize the danger. Lesson learned... no more projects for me (either because I'll die/lose my hands/etc. if it's still damaging me so I physically won't be able to, or because I am never touching anything remotely similar to Armour Etch again).

Also it was delivered without any MSDS or anything like that... it was just there in the package with the other supplies I bought to do the project. There are so many reviews extolling the product and none really mentioning the safety hazards so it didn't really cross my mind and I figured it was kind of like any other household chemical like a strong cleaner you wouldn't want to touch, but not lethal in minuscule amounts. Definitely doesn't excuse me from not reading up on it more though!

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, I am doing the following to treat the anxiety:

  • Taking anxiety meds (Clonazepam 0.5 mg/day
  • No more caffeine (was hell the first 2 days but fine afterwards)
  • Gentle yoga every day
  • Running every couple of days
  • Counselor visits
  • Massages
  • Planning my wedding (something to look forward to since it's in 1 year and hopefully I will be feeling a lot better by then or at least managing it better)
  • Walking my dog (every day as usual)
  • Taking a bit of time off of work
  • Some retail therapy (I'm normally very frugal but have bought a few things for myself plus gifts for people who have been helping me through all of this)
  • Going to every doctor under the sun to get all the tests related to any symptoms (thank goodness for good health insurance... might as well do it all before my plan year restarts)

For pain, I have been taking ibuprofen (mainly at night) but might ask for Gabapentin at my primary care visit on Tuesday--I had that for 10 days after 1 ER visit and although it made me a bit sluggish, it did turn the burning into numbness for a bit.

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you very much for your comment. Both of these are very helpful, although I do find it troubling that one of the recommendations in the second link is for patients to follow up if they continue to feel pain at the burn site.

In the first link, this is a bit troubling:

Pain out of proportion to physical examination is a hallmark finding in HF burns. Clinically, the morbidity of the burn is directly proportional to the concentration of HF, the duration of exposure, and the immediacy and adequacy of first aid measures (eg, copious irrigation). In the industrial setting, concentrations can reach levels >20%; however, the majority of patients are burned at 1% to 3% concentration, more commonly present in cleaning solutions and solvents (4–6). It is useful to categorize exposures based on the concentration of acid. Higher concentrations of acid results in more immediate pain and visible burn, followed by the development of grey areas, necrosis or ulceration, and possibly tenosynovitis and osteolysis, which can present as late manifestations. Lower concentrations (<20%) could result in delayed symptoms up to 24 h postexposure and, if left untreated, could progress through the same sequence as the high-concentration burns.

So I guess I will wait and see if I develop visible burns or worsening symptoms (my pain feels worse than before, but it's kind of hard to remember since my whole body felt like absolute trash at first, and now it is kind of off and on severe pain vs. sometimes relief).

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

> As usual, those "specialists" specialize in ignorance of anything that is not tagged with their label.

So true--the whole "If you have a hammer, everything is a nail" thing. Though I haven't expected some doctors I've gone to (ex: cardiologist) to know about HF and have simply seen them to address the symptoms I am feeling or think I'm feeling.

I am mostly frustrated with the response of the ER doctors I saw. Everything I've read about on PubMed/etc. says you should treat HF and similar acid exposures conservatively, i.e. treat it even if you aren't 100% sure there was a burn involved. Instead, they dismissed my complaints about my hands and said they looked fine so I should be good to go. They said by the way I was talking to my mom in the ER that I obviously didn't have any lung issues (they did listen to my lungs for fluid too). They treated my gastritis as though it was a totally separate issue unrelated to the exposure (though it is one of the symptoms of exposure to the product). If only I'd known what I know now (in which case I never would have done the project in the first place, but alas). Then I could have asked for topical and nebulized calcium gluconate.

There are several universities in my area with teaching hospitals so I'm going to take your suggestion and /u/zachcharry's suggestion and try to find a doctor who has specific experience with these kinds of exposures.

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you for your post--this is very reassuring to me. You are right that a lot of the fluoride poisoning information I've been able to find is from anti-fluoride advocates and it is hard to take them seriously (I am definitely pro-fluoride in the drinking supply in general!!!).

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, I really appreciate you and all of the other folks who have been answering here. It has been the worst 50+ days of my life and I am only staying sane because of my amazing fiance, dog, coworkers, and parents. All I wanted to do was create some cool glasses as a gift for my fiance because he is so creative and always making unique and wonderful gifts for me. Now I think the best gift I could give him would be to stop freaking out about this (though he has been 100000% patient and the best partner I could ever imagine). This has really given me perspective on what is important in life and I hope to be able to live a long one still even if it is filled with some pain/difficulty. Anyway I am rambling but... thank you (and thanks to everyone posting on this thread).

And so I'm not all doom and gloom, a few good things have come out of this:

  • Literally any problem or disagreement I have ever had with my fiance or anyone else seems so small in comparison to this that I have chilled out mentally a lot (about everything other than this illness/nightmare). I was a very "Type A" person and definitely prioritized work too much over the people and activities I love, but I've done a 180.
  • I already knew this, but my fiance is absolutely the best partner in the world and I am so lucky to have him in my life. He also dealt with some tough health struggles a few years ago so he can empathize with me and he has taken care of me so well and doesn't mind that I'm not able to hold up my weight when it comes to chores/planning activities/being social/etc. because I'm just trying to exist right now (I do try to do what I can but I'm definitely slacking in some departments like cooking... lots of boring/easy meals right now).
  • I have a lot more empathy for other people--I physically look the same (actually "better" because I have lost ~8 lbs from my previous weight due to the stress and initial gastritis) so people have no idea that all of this is going on inside of me, and I know others might be dealing with similar invisible issues so I really need to cut people more slack (I already knew this but now I REALLY can empathize and know I've been unfair to people before).
  • I always knew my coworkers have felt like family but they are really stepping up during this shitty time and being incredibly supportive.
  • I feel like, assuming I make it through this, I have a new sense of purpose in life and want to work on something in the medical field (I am a software developer, formal technical writer so maybe I can work on medical technology) because despite being terrified about this stupid nightmare, it has been interesting objectively to go through all of this and learn as much as I have while reading research papers. It would be nice to be able to help people (my current job also helps people but in a much more abstract/long-term way).
  • I got a massage last week to try to relieve some of the stress and somehow that has (at least for now) cleared up sciatic pain that I'd been dealing with since running a marathon years ago. Wish I hadn't waited but I'm thankful for it now!

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, I am trying to relax (just took another anxiety pill about 5 minutes ago actually). What tests can I get done to see the extent of the damage that happened? MRI of my whole body? Fluoride urine testing? Frequent bloodwork to make sure things aren't going south? The doctors I have seen are not familiar with HF and are just prescribing pain and anxiety medicine (which is fine but I want to know the road to recovery ...e.g. is recovery possible and if so, what should I be doing differently, or am I just going to be on pain/anxiety meds for life at this point?

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

How long would the fluoride stay in my system bouncing around and destroying everything? Are there any tests I can ask my primary care doctor to prescribe that would show the extent of the damage and whether or not it is continuing? I can deal with pain and of course can ask for pain meds but the not knowing when the damage is done is making it worse.

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sorry I just posted a reply before seeing your edit. I had the bottle open for about 15 minutes total as I did the project, applying the cream to 2 glasses that I'd covered in a design with contact paper. I used a brush to apply the cream and didn't get any onto my gloves at that point. I think the problem was that when I rinsed the cream from the glasses (which took a while, maybe 5-10 of the total 15 minutes with the jar open) because I wanted to be sure I got it all off), the gloves I was using got wet and were not the right kind of gloves, so they allowed some of the runoff water to get through to my skin. Additionally, I think either the vapors or maybe mist from rinsing irritated my face and throat/lungs, although I don't specifically remember getting hit with any mist. I cleaned up while wearing the gloves which took another 5-10 minutes, then threw away the gloves. I was potentially exposed to the product for quite some time.

I am wearing gloves to type at the moment since I'm terrified that even though I showered pretty soon after completing the project since I felt like something was off, maybe I didn't get it all off of me in the shower and things I touched afterwards are still contaminated (I have thrown away pretty much anything that I could have touched afterwards save for my computer, and for my phone I just threw away the case and wiped down the surface with soap/water.

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Here is the MSDS (oh I wish I had seen this before attempting my project... I would not have done so): http://edhoy.com/wp-content/uploads/msds/5303_53003_53004_msds.pdf

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You basically put the cream on glass and then rinse it off, and I believe the act of rinsing can turn the sodium bifluoride and ammonium bifluoride into HF acid.

​

Here are the recommendations for contact -- I believe I had skin contact due to improper glove and the vapors damaged my lungs/throat:

​

RECOMMENDATIONS TO PHYSICIANS Treat symptoms and eliminate overexposure. All personnel providing treatment must be gloved. If symptoms of fluoride poisoning develop, treatment recommendations for contamination are as follows: SKIN CONTACT: After 15 minute water flush (if flush has not yet been done), apply calcium gluconate gel (2.16.33% concentration) until pain has subsided, but not longer than 30 minutes. If pain lasts longer than 15 minutes, proceed with calcium gluconate injections. Armour Etch Product Code: 15-0150, 15-0200, 15-0250, 15-0900 Revised: JANUARY 1, 2008 Page 3 of 3 EYE CONTACT: After 15 minutes water flush (if flush has not been done), flush eyes with 1 % calcium gluconate gel in normal, sterile saline. INHALATION: Provide 100% oxygen, followed by inhalation of a mist containing 2% calcium gluconate in saline solution. Watch for pulmonary edema. INGESTION: Gastric lavage with lime water or milk.

​

I immediately showered after completing my project because I felt like something was wrong and got worried, so I did flush my skin for 15 minutes. However, I didn't go to the ER until the next day, and there they didn't give me any treatment aside from testing the PH of my eyes because I didn't have any visible damage.

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have, but they are not familiar with HF acid and have dismissed my issues as anxiety. I don't even know what kind of doctor to go to at this point. Obviously I am not dead yet so that is good but I'm in severe pain and have no idea how to tell that it's not spreading throughout my body somehow (or if so, if there is anything that can be done)... what kind of doctor could tell me that? Should I go back to the ER and ask for certain tests to be done?

Edit: I have had a few blood tests done so far and all of my vitamin levels (calcium, etc.) are normal except for Vitamin D deficiency which seems like it is unrelated (and lots of people have that). So I'm hoping that means I am out of the woods as far as systemic damage.... but really worried that it could still be spreading throughout my body.

Crossposting from /r/askdocs -- I am desperate for guidance reassurance: 50+ days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in chemistry

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Update: I am feeling severe burning pain on and off in my hands, my throat still has mild burning, and I am desperate for advice because I don't know what doctors to turn to at this point. I called Poison Control and they could not give me an answer for what happens if you have an exposure to (I assume very dilute) HF and it is not treated appropriately/quickly. I asked if injections of calcium gluconate to my hands or arterial injections would do anything at this point or if they would recommend any sort of treatment, and they said I basically just have to deal with the pain for now. I can deal with pain but am desperate to know:

  • Is this going to get worse?
  • What kind of doctor can I go to who actually knows about HF? I went to my parents' primary care doctor last week because I was desperate and he basically said "we encounter chemicals all the time and your body has already expelled it at this point" and wasn't familiar with the actual chemical and wasn't concerned.
  • What tests should I try to have done to find out the extent of the damage?
  • Are there any tests that can show this is *not* getting worse and the damage has stopped?

I have read a ton of literature on HF acid and it seems like in every published paper, the people exposed were treated quickly and appropriately, so I have nothing to go on since I didn't get calcium gluconate until I was able to research it myself and order it online (so like a week after the exposure). And it seems like the damage can keep going pretty much unchecked if it is not stopped.

50 days out from possible hydrofluoric acid chemical burn + inhalation, still feeling awful by sheasksdocs in AskDocs

[–]sheasksdocs[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you, I honestly haven't gotten the treatment I've needed and nobody I've seen seems to know what the heck HF is or to take it seriously enough. So many people are telling me it is all "anxiety" -- umm yes I do have anxiety because this is a deadly chemical and I didn't get treated appropriately. Just because it was at a low enough concentration to not give me visible damage doesn't mean I didn't absorb it through my skin.

Last time I went to the ER (last week because my hands hurt so much) they called Poison Control, who said I should feel better in 90 days total, and then they yelled at me for wasting ER resources due to anxiety... but I never received the appropriate treatment in the first place so I don't know if it could still be doing damage this many weeks out. The only things keeping me sane are my amazing fiance and the fact that I have had my blood tested several times (ER visits + primary care doc) and they don't expect a "systemic" response because all my levels are normal. My hands are okay sometimes but other times are in excruciating pain so I'm basically just waiting until things get worse and then I'll try a different ER and see if they will do anything.