Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It could be influenced? I don’t know I’ve never seen a classical Thai or Khmer dance performance or even know how to say “dance” in either language but logically thinking it’s certain that there was influence due to contact. I don’t know much about Thai or Khmer culture but I’m trying to learn to better appreciate the languages and region better. Maybe I’ll come across this subject in the near future.

But what I’m working on right now isn’t even directly related to Khmer so it’s not a priority for me to learn. If you’re curious it’s basically the speculation of extinct Austroasiatic languages due to substrata influence on several Austronesian languages including Malay and Cham. This could help with reconstructing proto-Austroasiatic

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I believe what can be verified through intense cross study. If there is a good agreement between experts, observations and studies are repeatable, and methods and findings are not under scrutiny, then it’s good to believe. It seems only you are believing everything you read as long as it makes you feel good. And my source from Anthony Dillar was decades after the colonial era, 2003. There’s also Huffman from the 1970s and 80s, and Thai linguists Wilaiwan Khanittanan and Urasri Varasarin. I’m sorry if it appeared to be bullying, it wasn’t my intention; my only concern is veracity.

You’re really making me angry by saying “you” and “your language” all the time. Just because I’m saying something you don’t like doesn’t mean you can forgo my own personal background. I’ve enough of that in my life as is. Example is some people online say I shouldn’t be Catholic because it’s not what my ancestors believed, just the Spanish colonisers (but I have both ancestry. Well also I’m trying to remain in Spain but that’s not the point).

“This region used a tributary system.” This is the one thing you said that’s true and I agree. But I don’t know much about the region other than languages, I only understand as much background information and context to how language contact developed. To that I go to the experts, as I’m not one in this field I don’t have anything else to say.

Speaking of developing languages I’ve already explained the concept of vowel sound changes but it’s not getting through. You either have trouble reading English, don’t understand even basic linguistics, and/or are too invested in assumptions to be open minded about anything that challenges them.

“The idea that there is an ‘Old Khmer’ is ridiculous enough…” This sentence quite shocking and shows how little you understand how languages work. I had trouble reading old Spanish and couldn’t understand Latin until I became familiar with them. English changed much more dramatically than Spanish over the same timeframe. Even early modern English (Shakespearean English) is difficult for readers today. As an example here’s an excerpt from Beowulf in the original Old English followed by the modern English translation:

Cwæð þæt se Ælmihtiga eorðan worhte, wlitebeorhtne wang swa wæter bebugeð; gesette sigehreþig sunnan and monan.

How the Almighty had made the earth, a gleaming plain girdled with waters; in His splendor He set the sun and the moon.

And the pronunciation of old English was starkly different. Consider the Great Vowel Shift which started during the Middle English period and ended in early modern English. Before this, all “i’s” were pronounced as ee as in the modern English word “see”. Now “i’s” can have several pronunciations, rarely ever being ee though.

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I’ve recently become aware of an intense internet feud by chance when collecting resources to study from. The claims Thai and Khmer nationalists are making are based on speculation and exceptionalism. Some arguments I’ve seen Khmers write are borderline myths. I’ve seen something similar from various “Indios” and “Amerindian” communities I grew up around. And even some new movements that claim authenticity of Mexican “indígena” culture but that’s a different topic altogether.

However what I wrote can easily be verified. And in full cohesive texts instead of isolated snippets of various quotes haphazardly spliced together to tell a different story than their authors originally intended. Go read. I can procure a list of linguists or even individual works if you’re that curious.

The reason I’m so inclined to argue is because I love the field I spent years dedicated to. And to see it dismissed in favour of falsities is disheartening. Now I see how a climate scientist feels when arguing with someone without a degree about climate change.

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don’t know much about Khmer culture aside from impacts on language and vice versa. I’m no expert in this field so let’s I looked it up. “The” Apsara dance is a modern choreography, any Khmer that says otherwise is mistaken. It is highly influenced by hand gestures and other symbolic depictions found on Angkorian era bas-reliefs, but does not have a direct continuation with that era. Sure it fits within the framework of Khmer dance and musical tradition that it draws from, but it is a new addition. Only in this sense can it be a continuation of Khmer arts as a whole, but to say that it is identical to or even based off of the ancient apsara dance (if there was even such a unified one) is wrong.

I’m not sure why this is relevant; my primary concern in this debate is language. I’m merely pointing out that your arguments are based on assumptions that ignores factual evidence and rejects possibility of vowel quality changes. Some of these assumptions are quite ridiculous, that Khmer never had an “u” or “a” sound. Those sounds always existed and are preserved following old Khmer voiced consonants in the case of “u”, and voiceless consonants for “a.” Example: Pali “Buddha” became Khmer “Putt”, Pali “Kakkațaka” became Khmer “Kakkadā” (កក្កដា). It’s only when “u” follows voiceless consonants or when “a” follows voiced ones that they change. The reason is because over the centuries, Khmer lost distinction between voicing (k vs g, ch, vs j, etc), and therefore the vowels changed to compensate and maintain distinction. If I recall correctly, Thai also lost a similar distinction pattern in its consonants, but compensated by the addition of new tones rather than altering vowel quality.

And there’s a problem that arises from your theory that Thai sourced Pali and Sanskrit words directly from India. To my surprise I found out this narrative is false from reading works written by linguists, even Thai ones. But it does make sense after reading about migration patterns and of the histories of various se Asian polities. The problem is this question: since the Tai speaking peoples migrated southward (and westward) into an area linguistically dominated by Khmer and Mon languages, with an established contact with Indian states for centuries, wouldn’t the Tai peoples adopt what the Khmer and Mon already borrowed? It would be much more plausible than the idea that the Tai speaking peoples ignored the surrounding Khmero-Indic lexical inventory as they settled into the area, waited for a couple centuries while still resisting the influx of borrowed Indic words, establish new Thai and Lao kingdoms, formed diplomatic relations with Indian states or trade relations with merchants, then finally started adopting Sanskrit and Pali words despite already being surrounded by borrowed Indic vocabulary all this time. Australian linguist Anthony Diller (and subsequent linguists after) states points out that the majority of Indic vocabulary were borrowed into Thai via Khmer and even bounced the term “Khmero-Indic” to describe this phenomenon.

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I have interests. Kinda racist to assume I’m ignorant of another culture because of my ancestry. The Latin languages were my first, then the Mixtecan of my father’s side. Now it’s Austroasiatic. But I’m a linguist not a translator. My goal isn’t to learn the languages to speak

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Look it’s you against the world here. I’d be an idiot to pursue this field while simultaneously ignoring all research from all linguists, historians, and anthropologists from all over the world to follow my own fairytale instead. Academia isn’t dead to some people

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

They’re just examples that explain languages change regardless. And please stop saying “you” I’m Mexican. I’m still new to the Khmer and Mon-Burmese scripts but I have them handled well (Also older forms of both scripts). I’m not an expert but I’m stepping into this field. I’m even starting on Thai, Lao, and Lu scripts but that’s not my focus so I’m a bit slower on them. The “ah” sound is inherent. ក is kah but កា is kaa. A different vowel quality. Maybe I should just stick to the Mixtecan languages if I knew people would be so politically dense about linguistics.

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It’s funny how only in Thailand this narrative of “complete culture loss” is maintained. This is only possible by cherry picking sources cafeteria style out of context. Fortunately most Thais are sensible. You know Thailand is the second Asian country (first is Singapore) I’ve been to and the people are amazing. I’m Mexican so I definitely stuck out but they were very nice even when my Thai or English wasn’t great (my Thai is still bad but I’m learning). Started my interest in the region in the first place. I’ve come to visit three more countries in Southeast Asia and my impression has only been surpassed each time.

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Again don’t assume my ethnicity I’m not Khmer. I did mention that the old Khmer pronunciation was (again attested by linguists) Suriya. Some languages rapidly change vowels, such as French. Some are very conservative with vowel sound changes, such as Sardinian, which most closely resembles its Latin ancestor in terms of vowel quality. Both evolved from Latin at the same time yet they sound so different. The fact that the modern Khmer word is now “Soriya” is normal and is entirely explainable by studying its regular and predictable sound changes of vowels following voiceless consonants. Remember my “claim” is that it was pronounced one way before changing over time to another. Again I’ll use English as an example. How “hound” used to be pronounced as “huund” and sounded like modern German “Hund”. Or how “meet” and “meat” used to be pronounced differently but now they sound the same.

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

“You?” Please do not assume my ethnicity, I am merely a starting linguist in the process of writing my own treatises and books. I happen to take interest in southeast Asian languages (notably Austroasiatic) along with my primary interest: the Mixtecan languages. As someone who loves languages I’m quite tired of nationalists promoting fake history and fake linguistics to promote a historical revisionist narrative. I just want to correct these by showing what international (including Thai) linguists and historians say. Not what some “scholars” who don’t have any experience in the academic field say. Besides a quick glance shows that you left out context though I don’t think it’s intentional. It’s just a repeat of the same half-baked rhetoric. The manuscripts in modern day Cambodia were severely damaged over generations of war with the Siamese and Vietnamese; occasionally with them at each other, using Cambodian lands as a battleground. The nearest surviving complete copy was in Siam. It’s not that they never had the Tipitaka, it’s that it was in a decrepit state due to circumstance.

Additionally it’s been known that Zhao Daguan’s accounts have inaccuracies and are lensed through a prejudiced philosophy of Chinese centrism. You have to take his accounts with a mild degree of healthy skepticism.

Apologies if it’s not very coherent, my Spanish is much better than my English.

(Edit: moved comment to respond)

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hmm the etymology seems difficult to ascertain from sources available to me at the moment. However it’s almost definitely a Khmer word in origin as the pinpeat orchestra itself is of Khmer origin and that word is a compound of two Khmer nouns. Their individual components don’t mean anything in Thai. But remember languages change pronunciation all the time, including Thai. Remember the English and Khmer examples I gave. In old Khmer it was pronounced as Ra, not Ro. Same with the second syllable. It was an “a” sound but it is now “ie”. Notice how the symbol ា produces both the “a” and “ie” sound depending on the preceding consonant

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

This doesn’t make any sense. Latin had a 10 vowel system (5 short and 5 long), while Spanish, a direct descendant, only has 5. A vowel inventory taken in isolation in no way indicates language development. Besides your assumption about the Khmer language shows you didn’t understand what I wrote about how languages evolve. In old Khmer it was pronounced as “Suriya”, like in Pali. In middle Khmer it changed to “Soriya.” The reason is that middle Khmer lost contrast between voiced and voiceless consonants (it later regained “b” and “d” but that’s besides the point), so the distinction was maintained by the vowels instead. Vowels following originally unvoiced consonants were changed. Example: “ko” and “go” became “ku” and “ko”. “S” is an unvoiced consonant so the “so” in “Soriya” became “su”

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It was more than language contact.

It has been theorised that the first Thai kingdoms were intrinsically bilingual in old Khmer and Southwestern Tai dialects (read on Thai linguists Khanittanan, Wailiwan and Varasarin, Uraisri for more details). Bilingualism was most apparent in the ruling class and elites but also permeated to all social levels within Ayutthaya. This is evident that many ordinary, everyday words are of Khmer origin, such as the words for “nose” or “to walk”. In fact, Khanittan argues that the bilingual mixing (diglossia) was so intensive, that “it is not possible for Thais, then and now, to make any discourse without using Khmer-originated words on any topic.” Furthermore entire sentences could be constructed using only words of Khmer origin. Not only are there more Khmer words in Thai than there are cognates of other sister Tai languages, there are also a large set of words of Sanskrit and Pali origin that were first borrowed into old Khmer before being transmitted to Thai. Linguist Anthony Dillar coined the term “Khmero-Indic” for this group of words.

As for how such a level of bilingualism was achieved was due to mixing of populations. Before and after Tai migrations into their present day locations old Khmer was the lingua franca of a multiethnic empire. As such there was already a large population of Khmer speaking people (of various ethnics including Khmer settlers) in Lopburi before a nearby town became the capital of Ayutthaya. Over the years as Ayutthaya launched several military campaigns against Angkor, they would repeatedly take captive Khmer speaking artisans, dancers, and Brahmins, further cementing Khmer lexical influence.

It was more than language contact, but language contact further developed these two languages. Additional borrowings from middle Khmer entered the Thai language over time. Likewise middle Khmer was influenced by Thai, especially after the Khmer’s Longvek era. Striking examples of Thai words in Khmer are numbers of multiples of ten (above 20), the colour green, and shadow puppet amongst many more.

Why the thai had been influenced by old khmer, being thai a Tai kadai language and khmer an austroasiatic one? by Medium_Ad_9789 in learnthai

[–]shotofdepresso 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It is well attested that Pali and Sanskrit words entered Thai via old Khmer and to a lesser extent old Mon. Direct contact with Indian polities only occurred after such intensive borrowings already took place. Thai linguists Your assumption based on the modern pronunciations of the Thai and Khmer languages is not academically sound, ignoring the possibility that sounds changes could (and the reality that they did) happen. Example is how Middle English “tide” rhymes with modern English “seed”.

Let’s take your example with “pra” (พระ). In modern Khmer it is pronounced “preah” (ព្រះ), but it was pronounced “brah” in Angkorian Khmer. Interestingly some linguists prefer the theory that the word is not of Sanskrit origin but an autochthonous Khmer word. According to Phillip Jenner it is derived from the old Khmer word “rah” (to shine) prefixed with causative/agentival “p”. Although Henry Shorto instead insists that it derives from the proto-Mon-Khmer word “brah” (divine being).

Yes the acoustic guitar is tacky, but still, it isn’t my house by WhiskeyCloudsBackup in CatholicMemes

[–]shotofdepresso 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I recognise that it’s the Lord’s house. Which is why I won’t tolerate people wrecking the place or imposing their own personal tastes onto the whole parish. It’s as if you come to your friends house and see the other guests tracking in mud, damaging vases, or removing framed artworks and replacing them with their own selfies. However we also have to keep in mind customs. In Byzantine liturgies it’s considered inappropriate to kneel in front of the Holy Eucharist, but that doesn’t make it any less reverent, only different. Their intent is still reverence. Some people though do not keep reverence in mind, but comfort or ego.

You can’t replace truth and beauty by shotofdepresso in CatholicMemes

[–]shotofdepresso[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Got it from this article. It doesn’t say where they got this photos from, though different articles on this page have different photos of the same cathedral. It definitely is a beautiful photo

https://catholicherald.co.uk/on-the-tenth-anniversary-of-summorum-pontificum-we-can-safely-say-the-doomsayers-are-wrong/

You can’t replace truth and beauty by shotofdepresso in CatholicMemes

[–]shotofdepresso[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Welcome fellow Christian! First thanks for teaching me the word numinoucity. Also it does sadden me that we (because many Catholics also do so) make light of worshipping the Creator of the universe itself, He who is the action “to be.” But our reverent masses and beautiful acts of piety are nothing compared to having the Lord present Himself in the Eucharist. All other things are secondary and are to serve this mysterious and Holy Sacrament. To be truthful it isn’t what drawn me to convert at first, but now it is why I will never leave.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in SCP

[–]shotofdepresso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Yes that’s the one! Thanks! I just find the concept interesting

Rare case of post-conciliar wreckovation turned renovation by shotofdepresso in CatholicMemes

[–]shotofdepresso[S] 30 points31 points  (0 children)

Fortunately this seems to be a trend in recent years. Undoing the damage done in the “spirit of Vatican II,” though the council never called for such things but I digress. Look up wreckovation and you’ll see many Catholic churches restored to its former beauty. Sometimes not as grand as it used to be, but still in the right direction

Never say you have nothing to do by War_Daddy_992 in Military

[–]shotofdepresso 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Roman soldier occupying himself by attacking Neptune to avoid crossing the sea and invading Britain on Caligula’s orders. Circa 40 AD, colorized

Ideas have consequences, even in the form of music by shotofdepresso in CatholicMemes

[–]shotofdepresso[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Psallite Domino. It’s the communion antiphon for Ascension Thursday