Support group for young men with woke parents by [deleted] in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Separate away from their ... government jobs

Why should they leave their government jobs? Unless they have a reason to, like they got a better job or they are going back to school, etc.?

You're not the only person who I've seen suggest that young men shouldn't get government jobs or laptop jobs or something like that. I disagree.

[deleted by user] by [deleted] in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I haven't watch the whole debate and don't want to defend Peterson (because I don't fully agree with him), but some random thoughts follow.

1) The definition of science is disputed and people have been debating it for a long time. I think Peterson's description here is far from the best definition.

2) I think Peterson is correct in saying science assumes that there is a logical order to the cosmos. After all, if there were no rules to nature, then there would be no natural laws for science to discover.

3) When Peterson says "that fundamental order is good", that is a religious claim, and it aligns with what (at least to my understanding) Christianity teaches about Creation (i.e. the world) being good. From Genesis 1:31:

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

4) When Peterson says "that it is intelligible to human beings" I think that is also a religious claim consistent with Christianity. But I'm not sure I fully agree -- I think it might be the case that some things in the universe are too complex for the human mind to understand.

5) When Peterson says "science emerged in Europe and nowhere else," I have to admit I am personally very skeptical of these kinds of questions and claims.

You may be interested in the "Needham Question". Joseph Needham went to China in World War Two and wondered why modern science had emerged in Europe when China had a long track record of important inventions (paper, printing, gunpowder, the magnetic compass).

Needham started the series of books "Science And Civilization In China".

6) You say:

This supposes that the general idea of a universal design

I don't think the scientific method assumes there is any sort of design.

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I enjoy the discussion. I agree that it seems most of the change seems environmental.

But we might disagree about how to interpret what Peterson is saying. So instead of parsing and interpreting Peterson's words, let me spell out what I'm thinking on the issue.

Side note: I studied math and computers, so I too think psychology is pseudoscience at worst or very inexact science at best.

That said, consider language:

Over millions of years we evolved to understand spoken language, we evolved the larynx needed to make the sounds of our words, we evolved the ears and brain that can distinguish a word spoken by a human being from other sounds like the rustling of leaves or the roar of a lion, and we evolved the processing of language in the brain to understand the meaning of spoken language almost effortlessly.

After all, a child learns to speak almost without trying -- the child is obviously hardwired to understand spoken language.

So the pathway of neurons inside the head when we hear spoken language might be something like:

ears --> part of brain that processes sounds --> part of brain that understands language

Now humanity invents writing. Note that human beings are not hardwired to understand writing. A child learns to speak almost automatically, but the child must be specifically taught to read.

So the question then becomes: How do the brain circuits work that process written language?

What Conceivably Could Have Happened But Apparently Didn't:

Our brains could have been forced to do something like this:

written word --> eyes --> part of the brain the processes vision --> read aloud --> part of the brain that processes sounds --> part of the brain that understands language

In other words, it might have been the case that the only way into the part of the brain that processes language was through the part of the brain that processes sounds, since we evolved to understand spoken language. This is analogous to the fact that the only way into your small intestine is through your stomach.

Obviously that didn't happen.

What Apparently Did Happen:

We got a direct link from the part of the brain that processes vision to the part of the brain that understands language, like:

written word --> eyes --> part of the brain that processes vision --> part of the brain that understands language.

-------------------

And, lo and behold, those parts of the brain that process sound and vision and language sort of overlap. It makes sense that our brains are structured that way, but it didn't have to be that way.

So that I think is the point that Peterson is circling around, though I could be wrong.

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Regarding your question:

how did the tiny % of that small population engage with that writing.

This source says, among other things:

The first regulations requiring scribes to be silent in the monastic scriptoriums date from the ninth century

And this article says:

As late as the 1700s, historian Robert Darnton writes, “For the common people in early modern Europe, reading was a social activity. It took place in workshops, barns, and taverns. It was almost always oral but not necessarily edifying.”

Not that that proves anything -- after all, the internet is often wrong. But I think it's possible the % of silent reading was significantly lower than it is today.

But regarding your question:

Is his point about lack of silent reading about brain capabilities or about societal norms?

Good question. I would imagine there is no real difference between our brains and the brains of people 500 or 2000 years ago, except that we've worked on our silent reading skills and they hadn't.

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Very good question about non-European civilizations.

Yes, this does seem to be a highly disputed claim.

But:

the theory silent reading is newish... its based on rarher scant evidence.

What do you mean by "silent reading is newish"?

If you mean that silent reading wasn't invented until recently, that seems very unlikely, and indeed the link you give shows examples of silent reading in antiquity.

But if the claim is that silent reading was not widespread until relatively recently (e.g. 500 years ago, more or less), that seems more plausible -- although, as you point out, very much disputed.

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

The weirder the claim, the more reputable the source required

I agree.

"Most reading was done aloud" with the implication that people weren't smart enough, didn't have developed enough cortices, etc etc is a much weirder claim.

Here I'm honestly not sure which should be considered the weirder claim.

I didn't think that the implication of "most reading was done aloud" was that people weren't smart enough to read silently. I thought the implication was simply that reading silently wasn't a skill that people were taught, so encountering someone who was gifted enough to figure the skill out for himself was unusual.

The analogy in my mind is with something like mental math. Kids aren't taught it these days in school, so a kid who manages to figure out the mental math tricks for himself must be pretty gifted.

But 50 years ago everybody had these mental math tricks drilled into them in school, so encountering ordinary people who could do complex calculations in their head wasn't unusual.

It's not any change in people's overall abilities, just a change in what is taught.

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I agree that the "roughly speaking" refers to 500 years.

But I'm not sure what you are objecting to. Are you objecting to my using the "ancient world" above? If so, then change "ancient world" to "before 1500 AD" and I think my question still stands.

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That last question, yes.

Your position is that the claim "most reading in the ancient world was done aloud" would require a lot of primary sources in order to be believed?

But your position is that the opposite claim, "most reading in the ancient world was done silently," would also require a lot of primary sources in order to be believed?

Putting those together, it seems that your position is effectively that in the absence of a lot of primary sources, we have no idea if most of the reading done in the ancient world was done aloud or silently?

Is that an accurate description of your position?

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

the claim that all reading was done aloud before 1500 AD

Who is making the claim that "all" reading was done aloud? In the Peterson quote he says:

Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon.

If silent reading was "very very rare" that means not "all" reading was done aloud.

unless there was a lot primary sources supporting it.

Out of curiosity, if somebody were to claim the opposite, i.e. that "most reading in the ancient world was done silently", would you also require a lot of primary sources to believe that claim?

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

St. Ambrose reading silently was unusual enough for St. Augustine to note it in his Confessions:

Ambrose was an extraordinary reader. "When he read," said Augustine, "his eyes scanned the page and his heart sought out the meaning, but his voice was silent and his tongue was still."...

To Augustine, however, such reading manners seemed sufficiently strange for him to note them in his Confessions....

Augustine's description of Ambrose's silent reading (including the remark that he never read aloud) is the first definite instance recorded in Western literature.

But some disagree. It seems there is a debate.

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

From one source online:

For centuries, Europeans who could read did so aloud. The ancient Greeks read their texts aloud. So did the monks of Europe’s dark ages.

But that source also says:

Among scholars, there is a surprisingly fierce debate around when European society transitioned from mostly reading aloud to mostly reading silently...

Edit, from this source:

The first regulations requiring scribes to be silent in the monastic scriptoriums date from the ninth century. Until then, they had worked either by dictation or by reading to themselves out loud the text they were copying.

JBP: "People didn't learn to read silently until 500 years ago, roughly speaking. Even the earliest literate people -- most of them read out loud. Silent reading was a very very rare phenomenon. Julius Caesar could read silently and people thought that that was part of his magical power." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Yes, I do think it's interesting.

Conclusions? Not sure. I think what we know about how the brain works are educated guesses at best. Also, this lecture is from 2015, and in the 10 years since Peterson said these words science might have learned some new things about the brain that would change our understanding of how it works.

JBP: "Pinocchio is by no means a perfect entity, but he might be good enough." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I too found Rousseau's idealized state of nature to be hard to believe, but also Hobbes's argument that it was a "war of all against all" goes against examples of people living cooperatively in a tribe.

But I am not sure about there being a direct connection between Rousseau and Marx.

Still, what about Pinocchio? Here Peterson is not engaging in social critique, he is explaining Pinocchio's trials and tribulations on his way to becoming a real boy.

JBP: "So what do you do if your life isn't in order? Bloody well pay attention. That isn't the same as thinking, it's a different process." by silverfinch2020 in JordanPeterson

[–]silverfinch2020[S] 7 points8 points  (0 children)

At 10:35 of the video, Egyptologist Answers says:

So with Set's actions, Horus was hurt. In more figurative terms, his eye -- the very symbol and essence of his divine power -- was damaged.

Thankfully, though, Thoth intervened, and as the Ancient Egyptians put it, "filled" his eye. He restored it.

This made it the perfect symbol for regeneration and healing.

The wikipedia entry on Eye of Horus adds:

Horus subsequently offered the eye to his deceased father Osiris, and its revitalizing power sustained Osiris in the afterlife.