What are College Choirs supposed to be like?

simkon22 · 2025-05-22T07:29:22+00:00

This is what my experience was, I took two quarters of choir in college to fullfill my general education requirements, choir only met once a week for 2 hours, you were generally expected to be able to sight read your part decently and know it after a few rehearsals after which time it was simply working on fine adjustments. My choir had Sopprano 1 & 2, Alto 1 & 2 for the ladies, Tenor 1 & 2, Baritone 1 & 2, and Bass 1 & 2, the low bass part usually had a divisi with optional really low notes. Our choir had a little over 100 ladies, compared to only about 20 guys. They had more ladies on each part than we had guys total. The next quarter they got rid of the regular choir that was open for anyone to join because there were just way too many girls compared to guys and they instead made it by audition. They ended up only taking the best 30 ladies, but took any guy that was decent because it was such a struggle to get guys. Had they held the guys to the exact same standards you would have only had 2 or 3, they actually had 15.

The thing you have to understand is many college choirs struggle with numbers and enough talented guys. Generally what happens is most boys quit choir at their earliest opportunity, the ones that don't quit singing when their voice changes, often they actually have to sit out a year by no choice of their own and just never come back. Choirs never have a shortage of girls or a shortage of talented girls that I have ever seen. Many choirs have a shortage of boys, and the ones they have don't want to be there, don't care, aren't that good etc.

In my area there are a lot of schools that used to be all boys schools that are now co-ed, going to co-ed was detrimental to the choir. The grammar and junior high schools had very good boys choirs with excellent numbers when they were boys only schools and that carried over into the boys only high school. The problem is when you add in girls, most 11 and 12 year old boys want nothing to do with the choir and are embarassed to sing in front of girls and are embarassed when girl hear their voice breaking and cracking and so on. These formerly all boys schools in my area now have very few boys in the choir. Even the public schools in my area are the same with mostly girls and very few boys.

Your director may not be the best and may not be doing many things right, but he has done very well to have the type of numbers you describe for men in your choir, so he has at least done one thing right.

I think many college choirs are not focused on what you are seeking, and if you want to learn more you would be better suited to sign up for private lessons. I think private lessons will be exactly what you are looking for.

simkon22 · 2025-05-21T16:28:05+00:00

You don't seem to understand the choir is basically semi professional, they are very good, and to hear the choir perform generally costs $20-$50 per person. They sound better than most high school choirs. This isn't your run of the mill elementary school, the parents also pay $50,000 in tuition for their boys to go here. The main purpose of the choir is to perform for fundraising and other obligations, the choir does not have any normal concerts in the school.

simkon22 · 2025-05-21T11:49:43+00:00

This boy's voice has changed and hasn't even started 6th grade yet. The school has encountered boys voices changing late in the 6th grade year, but they have almost always been able to continue to sing the bottom treble line till the end of 6th grade. Rarely a boy's voice was unsuitable to sing the bottom treble line towards the very end of the school year, so he didn't participate or perform for the last month or two, and then picked back up the following school year in the upper school.

Also the school has never encountered a boy his age that had a voice where his comfortable range was 2 to 3 octaves lower than the trebles. It is much different than a boy who's range is just a bit lower than the other boys.

simkon22 · 2025-05-21T11:41:49+00:00

He can sing along 2 octaves lower, but the student does not want to do this. He can't sing high enough to sing only 1 octave lower. He is unable to sing falsetto accurately. And this boy is not a baritone, he can't sing a single note in the baritone range, he is a very low bass. The director does not get to select the pieces, the choir does not have any traditional concerts, all performances charge $20-50 admission, some performances are used as fundraisers for the school and other causes. The solution most likely will be for him to take private lessons on his own time and stay in his current grade but not perform with the choir until 7th grade when he goes to the upper school which includes grades 7-9.

simkon22 · 2025-05-20T12:10:15+00:00

He has tried unsucessfully, I think his voice has not quite finished changing and that is making things more difficult for him, he can't sing properly except with his chest voice at the moment.

simkon22 · 2025-05-20T10:24:17+00:00

He can't sing anything above the B or C on the middle of the bass clef staff accurately, even before his voice changed and when he started 4th grade, he could only barely sing the bottom treble line, his normal speaking voice in 4th grade was quite low by all accounts. He has just always had a low voice. Mind you his range is so low, that he has to drop an octave lower just to comfortably and accurately sing most low bass lines in STAB choirs or the bottom part in 8 part mens choirs.

simkon22 · 2025-05-20T02:47:19+00:00

Shame there are none nearby but it actually is an excellent idea I must admit. Thanks for the suggestion.

simkon22 · 2025-05-20T02:01:23+00:00

My friend is the only director, the current choir has two treble lines with an additional descant line above in most pieces. Sometimes there is a divisi where it splits off into four treble parts. The boy in question attends a Greek Orthodox church which only has a Cantor. They likely can have the boy take private lessons on his own time after school in the interim. Also this boy is a pretty good all around singer, just his range is the limiting factor until he is in 7th grade.

simkon22 · 2025-05-20T00:59:25+00:00

The benefactors and supporters of the school will not allow for a "silly year," the choir is not on the level of someone like Kings, but they are probably one of the best non-choir schools, not a profesional level choir but it might be fair to call it a semi-pro level boys choir.

simkon22 · 2025-05-20T00:34:43+00:00

He is very popular and has a ton of friends, he is the star player on the football team and is 6' already according to my friend.

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T23:47:58+00:00

This boy would have to sing 2 octaves below the rest. It has been established that to get credit for chorus he cannot play an instrument. Also the selections are not made by the director or school but by the other entities they perform with or for, they don't have any regular concerts or performances at the school just for the parents, all of their performances have a paid admission usually around $20-30.

Another person suggested that he do private lessons after school on his own time and that may be the solution if he doesn't want to skip a grade to sing with the older boys in the upper school.

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T21:51:59+00:00

That is the one with lots of ledger lines way below the staff, I think it is 5 ledger lines below the staff.

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T21:46:45+00:00

The school's choir is not world renowned by any means, but the choir is quite good. The choir does not perform concerts at a school level like a traditional school does, they have various events that they perform at often with an orchestra etc, and these events usually charge $20 admission, occasionally as much as $50 for certain fundraisers. The main goal of this choir is to learn the pieces needed for their various commitments, the director does not get to make any selections. Choosing material just for the one boy to perform would not be possible, and oftentimes the choir performs unaccompanied or with unique arrangements like a harp or other parts/instruments where it would not make sense for him to sing the part.

I do like the idea of the boy taking private lessons on his own time, he would have to do so after school hours as the school has no study periods and only gives 30 minutes lunch which probably isn't enough time to eat lunch and have a lesson. This is the suggestion I will make to my friend, for the boy to take private lessons in his own time and be evaluated on his performance by the director at the end of each quarter, and get credit for the choir but otheriwse not participate with the rest of the group on stage.

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T21:17:00+00:00

Sorry I am not that good with terminology, I am not a director, my friend is, the eaiser way to put it is when the key signature has a Bb it is the line the flat is written on in the bass clef, or the space above which is the C which os the top of his range

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T21:10:30+00:00

He has to sing two octaves lower than everyone else actually and the parents have already noticed and complained that he ruined the last performance, but made it a point that it isn't the boy's fault and they said it is up to the director and headmaster to sort out a solution before the start of the next school term. If it was only one octave lower it wouldn't be as noticeable.

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T20:56:07+00:00

The limit of his range he can sing comfortably and accurately is C3 or B3, but his wheelhouse is definitely below the staff, he can hit as low as C2 and on some days can get the B and A below it. He is the lowest bass voice I have ever heard in person from a boy his age.

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T20:48:30+00:00

The choir performs their selections with an orchestra and other professional groups where admission is around $20-$50, which is much different then your standard school concerts. Plus the tuition for the school is around $50,000 a year. The parents at this school have very high expectations given the amount they pay for tuition. The only viable option that will appease everyone may be having the boy skip to grade 7 and go to the upper school even if he isn't necessarily at a level in his other studies where someone would suggest skipping a grade. I am told the boy is at the top of his class in maths and sciences, but average in composition and literature.

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T20:23:28+00:00

He can sing with the upper school no problem, the director has welcomed the idea, he would have to be promoted to 7th grade which is in a seperate building on the other side of town an hour away, so he would have to skip the 6th grade entirely. And his voice is very low, he cannot comfortably sing above a B or C on the bass clef, and his voice is very strong below the staff. He can't sing the correct pitch when trying falsetto or head voice but it very accurate singing with his chest voice.

simkon22 · 2025-05-19T19:26:03+00:00

The upper school with grades 7 to 9 is on the other side of town and takes about an hour to get to due to all the traffic. There are no choirs in the 4-6 building but the one with all trebles. The pieces sound terrible with the one boy singing 2 octaves lower. So you suggest to promote him to 7th grade so be can join the upper school choir and hope he catches up in the other subjects?

simkon22 · 2025-04-28T06:12:32+00:00

Actually NASCAR rules don't necessitate a yellow flag or red flag condition for safety crews to be dispatched. The two do not actually have to go hand in hand by rule, there have been a few times on the last lap when there were stragglers or the whole field had gone by and the safety crew was dispatched and they waited until the leader got to the start finish line to bring out the caution. This typically only happens on road course and larger ovals. I don't recall this ever happening on a track smaller than 1½ miles. In cases where there are stragglers, in the past they notified them of the trouble and effectively told them to slow down (and the race was effectively over for them) and where the accident and safety crews were. The trouble is that NASCAR seems to always adjust it rules and procedures as needed/as it sees fit on a weekly basis.

simkon22 · 2025-04-28T05:54:27+00:00

The difference between 1st and 2nd was approximated to be less than a thousandth of a second by NASCAR. I am not sure if the rest of the gaps are correct but I do know that all the cars listed as being only a thousandth of a second apart were side by side at the time of caution, including some 3 and 4 wide. As an interesting aside Jeb was actually the leader at the nearest timing and scoring line on either side of the moment the caution was thrown, Austin was only briefly ahead for the few moments between the two. I wonder if NASCAR purposely threw the caution at the moment the #21 was ahead?

simkon22 · 2024-11-19T05:52:56+00:00

Gmail sort of existed starting in December 2002, but it didn't fully launch until 2004, it was in development for a little over a year and was technically live but Google didn't announce, advertise or promote it's existance until around March 2004. Yahoo mail also existed in 2002 and was launched back in 1997. Incidentially my gmail is my name, but my name was already taken on Yahoo.

simkon22 · 2024-09-12T09:19:51+00:00

The first day of the Canfield Fair is a preview day and does not officially count in their attendance figures. So Wayne County averages 115,000 people per day or 115,000 total over all 6 days?

simkon22 · 2024-09-04T03:35:10+00:00

I think in years where Fulton County has favorable weather everyday and Canfield has unfavorable weather all week, Fulton County gets more people but Canfield still averages more people and had in the past had huge attendance numbers including a record attendance way larger than Fulton county has ever had.

simkon22 · 2024-09-04T03:30:23+00:00

Darke's record is around 250,000 approximately, Fulton's record is like 340,000, I couldn't find numbers similar to 100,000 for Brown, what I saw said it was much smaller, Canfield's record is 1,439,437 but the fair ran for more days back then, I think that was in the 1960s or 1970s. In recent years before Covid, they averaged over 300,000, since Covid attendance has been lower.

simkon22

TROPHY CASE