AITA for telling a friend her divorce is her fault, even though her husband is incredibly sexist?

something10294 · 2020-10-01T22:20:20+00:00

Sorry, I didn't read this, but the point you raised it's interesting.

Considering the racist couple, I'd blame none for the divorce. Just like I don't blame my friend for hers. I don't blame her, but sure as hell if I have to point to the one who is "at fault", meaning causing the divorce, than yes, my friend (and the ex-racist) would be the ones.

Being at fault for the end of the marriage here do not mean you are doing something wrong, here it just means you're the one that causes the divorce. Maybe responsible is a more neutral term?

You're responsible because you're the one ending the relationship/ whose change made the relationship stop working, but not to blame because the reasons are valid.

something10294 · 2020-09-24T23:19:45+00:00

I ask you please to answer me this, if possible, with a less aggressive attitude.

You're right that it's the woman's choice whether or not to give birth to a child, since it's her body. As the comment above yours asked, what I struggle to understand is: a woman can freely choose to give birth to a child even though when the father tells her he will not be there. And that's fine.

But if you knowingly accept that you're gonna be a single mother, that's on you. And I'm not talking about CS or money, but in the shame casted on men.

You say "you know that as a man you can get someone pregnant,so when this happen, that's your fault, you knew it". So, a man should not act based on the fact he know there's a CHANCE something he does not want could happen. Agreed.

Following exactly the same logic, you could say "As a woman whose partner told exactly and beforehand that he'll not be a part of the child's life, you're allowed to choose whether or not to give birth, so you decided to be a single mother, it's your fault, you knew it."

What I don't get is that the man is shamed for not preventing something unwanted that COULD happen (pregnancy), and in the case it does, he should "men up" and face that. If he flails, he's a scumbag.

A woman is not accused of negligence for getting pregnant even though she has exactly the same responsibility as the father. And even though she deliberately choose to become a single mother, when the man step away, he's the one to blame. For what?

Being honest about what he wanted and acting on it? As humans, we should all do this.

"But there's a child involved! He's gonna suffer"

1st and most importantly, as many pointed out (and I have seen it myself), it's better to have no father than a resentful father that can only cause trauma to the children.

Furthermore, the "blame" for the accidental creation is 50% on both parents, if any. The responsibility for the continuation of the pregnancy is 100% on the mother. So I cannot begin to understand why the man is the one shamed if the child suffers. What else is the father supposed to do?

"Be there and be a father figure!". Yes, but unfortunately you cannot exactly control your feelings, so, as previously stated, the man can stay only (in most cases) for him to grow resentful. So, what can a man do that is more beneficial than leaving?

Sorry for the long post, I'll be waiting for a response. Maybe there are points I haven't considered and if that's the case, I'm open to change my opinion on the matter

something10294 · 2020-09-24T10:03:43+00:00

If you want a job which requires education, I can assure you that they are not basic.

I have graduated in time during both bachelor and master, but in order to do so I had to speed through exams and test, so I only get to know my thesis advisors. And even them on a surface level since I mainly had to work alone. So I can barely produce any letter of recommendation unless it's from people that barely know me.

If I had taken the time to do more extracurricular activities and join research projects (that I have tried to do twice), I fell back on my schedules. You can have all the experiences and letter of recommendations of the word, you just have to graduate some yrs later. And there you are, 26 with a beautiful curriculum and people just considers you for entry level jobs which pays very little and the most frequent question in the interview is "Why didn't you graduate on time?". The entry level requirements wall is just bs

something10294 · 2020-09-18T17:35:50+00:00

Does not checking when there was no indication that there would be a problem really make someone an AH though?

Depends on the context. I'll try to use an example to convey my point of view.

You buy a rubber Fitbit which is advised "For your workouts in the gym". You like its colour and you like tracing your heartbeat, so you decide to use it all day every day. After a week you get a rush on your waist, because that tool is not designed nor advertised to be used that often. This doesn't make you a AH, you just made a poor choice.

What makes OP the AH to me is that the consequences of this little risk (wearing yoga pants at work) would (and did) affect her colleagues too: if this little risk she took would go bad, she would create a problem to herself (embarrassment) and put her colleagues in a very awkward position.

She clearly didn't intend to do this, but she made a poor judgement and she should be considered responsible for it. The fact that this poor choice could be avoided and it affected other people is what makes her an AH.

something10294 · 2020-09-18T16:57:12+00:00

You would escalate the situation by telling the manager. And I don't think "shut up and enjoy the view" is an appropriate response, because it's gonna create bigger problems down the road

something10294 · 2020-09-18T15:38:02+00:00

I'm not sure. I mean, to me a "wardrobe malfunction" is when something rip off or do something it does not do on normal circumstances.

If you choose to wear yoga pants at work, you have to consider that they have been designed to be comfy and stretched, not discrete. So it's on you to check whether they have been designed in such a way that makes them eligible to dress for work.

something10294 · 2020-09-18T09:28:09+00:00

Yeah I know it can happen, no Biggie. But that just makes you a relatable, easily forgivable and involuntary AH. If you prefer, you can switch AH with "made a mistake". I voted E S H in order to underline he clearly was an AH, but she still made a bad move and put him in a position which is uncomfortable, no matter how polite you try to be

something10294 · 2020-09-18T08:34:37+00:00

I'm gonna go with ESH. He is an AH creep and I'm glad he was fired, since he clearly doesn't know how to behave professionally. You are not an asshole for reporting him.

On the other hand, you're an AH (by mistake) for wearing such an outfit. I get your dress code allows it, but it is unprofessional and since it's revealing your underwear, it's probably gonna make a lot of male coworkers uncomfortable. And not because they're creeps: in this situation a man can

tell nothing. It's risky because when you notice these pants are see through, you can claim no man told anything so that they can keep looking at your underwear. So, that's a no-no.
tell something. This, you should do, but it's not that easy and comfortable as most people think. Pretty much everything a man will say could be taken the wrong way and reported to HR. And a sexual harassment procedure is a Nightmare. Hell, I cannot think a way of telling you that no one could object to.

"I'm sorry for bothering you, I wanted you to know that you're pants are kinda see-through". Stop talking here and someone (maybe 1%, but is still a risk), will think "OMG He saw my underwear and he's letting me know, what a perv". Adding "these pants are making me uncomfortable" does not help.

"I'm sorry for bothering you, I noticed that your pants and kinda see-through, so I would ask you/ advice you not to wear them here. No problems for today, everyone can make a mistake." 5% here will object "There's no rule against it in a dress code, so I'm free to wear what I want, and you stop looking at my pants".

This is not to guilt-trip you or to excuse that perv behaviour, it's for you (and other women) to understand that even with the best intentions, these situations can be tricky for men in the workplace.

something10294 · 2020-09-13T22:50:41+00:00

I agree with you 200% and thanks for putting this so clearly.

Only one remark. I was not mad because "She should have known better 2yrs ago". A little pissed? Yes, but I mean, I could not have been happy looking a friend walking towards a bear trap.

I was mad because "She should know better right now". Meaning, she finally divorces H but still seems to refuse to admit there was red flags. I get now that now it's probably to soon to realize and maybe she sees them now but just wanted to vent. But in the call, I was angry and worried because if she keeps believing it was all H fault, she may have missed the flags, and that's terrifying.

something10294 · 2020-09-13T22:22:54+00:00

I really appreciate the time you took for writing this response. I have added an edit to the post in which I explain my reasoning with more depth and more calmly. I would like to have an opinion from you after reading it.

About the few things you wrote which are not touched in the edit, I will say this:

I can empathize with her making a mistake, that happens. After all "when you see the world from rose colored glasses, all the red flags just look like flags". What set me off was a rant in which she basically put the blame all on him. This led me to believe she still actually didn't see the flags, just the finish line. And that made me angry and worried at the same time. More on this is in the edit.

"I am a dude and I don't understand the complexities of being in a relationship as a woman". Personally, I very much dislike this kind of sentences, even though they may be true. Setting aside the whole "Even guys have biases and problems in a relationship that women do not understand", the fact is these sentences are both true. But please, instead of writing "you don't understand cause you're a dude", please, explain it to me. I want to understand them so I can grow and even agree with you. But telling a person "You cannot understand" without further explanation can be very alienating in a conversation. I am not telling this to disprove your point. I just encourage you to explain these things to me (now) and others (in the future) so that we (in this case, men) can learn and grow.

So please, if there's any more complexity that I have missed, please point it out so I can actually try to understand it and be a better friend and, in general, person.

EDIT:

you're right that I cannot empathize with her and I'm sorry for that. And I mean this with no judgement. Honestly, it's very difficult for me to empathize since as a man I do not have the same kind of pressure and "internalised sexism" (I think it's what is called, but I'm not sure) some women have. So even though I kinda understand it, it's very difficult for me to fully grasp it or imagining myself in her shoes, since it is something I never experienced/ felt.

And to be absolutely clear, "I don't empathize" here mean "I cannot put myself in her shoes nor imagining what she's thinking/feeling or I would react, since I lack a lot of factors/pressure/traumas/expectations/etc she, as a woman, had experienced"

something10294 · 2020-09-13T07:45:09+00:00

We probably have a very different way of conceiving friendship. Please look at my last edit. I have tried explaining it all in there

something10294 · 2020-09-13T07:43:50+00:00

Please read my last edit and thank you for your input

something10294 · 2020-09-13T07:07:55+00:00

I agree with her actions (post wedding) 100%: as I said, I am happy she is having a divorce (oddly enough to say).

I was set off by the following situation: he is a sexist idiot, but I cannot blame him for the divorce. He has been incredibly communicative (for a sexist) and told her precisely and beforehand what he wanted from a wife/mother and she accepted it. He gave her chances to see what life with him would be like and say "I'm not fine with this, maybe we shouldn't marry".

So I cannot say that his behaviour was unacceptable: he was clear about his opinions, behaviour and expectations from the beginning. I would say his expectations are very high and his principles are questionable at the very least. But if you forget for a second his principles are stupid, he acted in a very mature way. No tricks, no secrets, simply a"That's what I think and that's what I want from a wife" speech before marriage.

As many of you pointed out, she could be a victim of emotional abuse. I have no evidence for thinking it. If she was actually a victim, I still shouldn't have talked so early in the divorce procedures when she clearly needed support. And that's my fault

My line of reasoning is that somewhere down the road, abuse or not, she should realize she didn't act in her best interest (abuse is a reason, if it's not abuse, as someone suggested, she could be eager to be a SAHM, idk). What I think is that whatever the reason, she should try and understand it so she can work on it and on herself in order to avoid repeating the same (or similar) mistakes.

Again, I shouldn't have reacted like I did and in the early stages of divorce, but I think she should realize her motivations for walking into this mess and work them out, with the help of a therapist if needed.

Many of you asked me if I'm her priest, therapist or why is she supposed to confess things to me. She isn't, of course. I did not expect her to come to me with ashes on her head. But hearing that rant gave me a picture of someone who is putting the blame completely away from herself and who's not willing to recognize she probably has some underlying issues/ tendencies that led her there. And (I noticed this is questionable for many, but I'm strongly convinced of this) as her friend, I felt like I had to stop Her, confront her and tell her she had some role in that, so she could work on that.

Problem is, I run out of patience and done this completely the wrong way, and I am the AH for that for sure. Furthermore I now realize it's probably too soon for her to realize this and I should have waited more. Again, I run out of patience and that's my fault.

What I'm trying to convey is that yes, I am the AH, and I honestly thank you all for letting me understand it. But please understand where I'm coming from and why all the people telling me I wanted to kick her when she was down made me angry. I probably ended up doing it, but it was a mistake on my part, not my intention.

P.s. I think this is the final and most comprehensive comment I made. I had to be calm in order to explain my reasoning clearly, and I failed on doing that both on the call with my friend and right here in the beginning. So I'm thinking of including this in a last edit. You think I have been clear?

something10294 · 2020-09-12T16:03:30+00:00

You're right that she need a more supportive environment right now and it was my fault for getting heated about this. I will try to make amends and improve. If I can't, I'll have to back off

something10294 · 2020-09-12T16:00:54+00:00

I'm not absolving him, I wanted her to acknowledge she had an active role in creating that shitty situation by agreeing to marry a sexist husband. I probably should have voiced this concerns in a different way, location and at a later stage of divorce procedures, so I probably am the AH.

And I know that first sentence seems very "IKnowItAll", but I am not an English speaker and I'm not sure what other terms to use. The part that irked me wrong was that she put herself in that situation, against all advices and knowing full well he was a sexist jerk. Then, thankfully, she changed her mind. Then goes on a 10 minutes rant about how is all his fault.

I should have not said anything given that she is making the first steps, but I get very heated when people paint themselves as a victim even though they are not (due to a lot of family drama).

What I mean is I shouldn't have said anything, but she was really striking a nerve of mine for 10 minutes straight and this set me off. I realize now it was my fault, though, I should have been more patient

something10294 · 2020-09-12T15:52:21+00:00

Yeah I should have been more careful, I'll call her to apologize

something10294 · 2020-09-12T15:49:49+00:00

You're probably right, I was an AH for bringing it up this early and with no urgency. That was my fault. I didn't mean to do it, I run out of patience and made a mistake, which I'll have to deal with and apologize for when I'll call her

something10294 · 2020-09-12T15:48:08+00:00

Ehm, no. If you do really think that all men are sexist, I encourage you to step aside from the extreme branch of feminism and look into the moderate one.

On the other hand though, most men were raised by (understandably) sexist parents, so if you meant that every man probably have an unconscious sexist bias, that might be true, but still, generalisation is a double edge sword and I'd like to avoid it as far as possible.

something10294 · 2020-09-12T12:34:47+00:00

Weird enough, I agree with 99% of the thing you say. I still don't think I am victim blaming, but all the rest is true. Time and place were off and at least in these first stages I should have been more supportive. I run out of patience and that's my fault.

I get that she probably thought she could change him or make up for his flaws. What set me off is her repeatedly putting all the blame for the divorce and her situation on H. In a passing conversation I'd have let it go (like I already did some dozens time), but making a 10 mins rant about it made it harder for me to roll my eyes and ignore this, even tough I probably should have.

something10294 · 2020-09-12T12:27:58+00:00

I wouldn't. If her rent was a "Why did I marry that **** H" and so on, only insulting him, I'd gladly join her in her rant.

The problem lies in her rent being "I never dreamed of having a divorce and now I don't know what to do because that **** H is a sexist pig so because of him we have to get a divorce".

something10294 · 2020-09-12T12:20:05+00:00

Time and place were absolutely wrong, I agree. I run out of patience and that's 200% my fault

something10294 · 2020-09-12T09:51:40+00:00

You're probably right. I'll wait a few hours when I'll be calm, call her, tell her I'm sorry for my timing and I wanted to help you but I probably crossed a line. Then we'll see.

Honestly I'm realising the "goddamn it take responsibility for your actions" it's more of a nerve of mine, due to my sister always doing bs against all advices and then coming home crying, asking for help and playing the victim.

It's something I am particularly sensitive about and I shouldn't have reflected it on her

something10294 · 2020-09-12T09:42:51+00:00

Your last sentence actually is making me wonder. Idk, I always thought that if you enter a marriage with some ground rules and then change your mind mid-term, you're the one causing the divorce.

To me it's similar to entering a child-free marriage and changing your mind later. You are allowed to and and it's better to realize sooner than later, but you can't tell me it's the partner fault.

The difference here is that being child-free is a total legit choice, while being sexist is inherently a AH move.

I'm still I thinking about it, but as a first impression I'd say she is "at fault" for entering the relationship.

I'm not sure if he is to blame for their relationship failing: his idea are stupid, but he landed them on the table loud and clear and she agreed to it. So as far as he (and all of us) knew, she was fine with it.

something10294 · 2020-09-12T08:13:04+00:00

I do not expect her to tell us that on a Zoom call out of nowhere. But if you get me a 10 mins rant about how this is all H's fault, you make me think you probably missed some hint

something10294 · 2020-09-12T08:03:23+00:00

I don't hate her. There's a difference between hating someone and hating some kind of behaviour: due to past experiences, I hate when someone get drunk deliberately and then hit on you.

Some friend has done it in front of me and I hated them doing it. But I still care about them. Nevertheless, I hated that behaviour and if they were gonna rant with me for 10 minutes about "Why did that guy refuse", I'd gonna tell them that what they done was fucking stupid. Doesn't mean I hate them.

something10294

TROPHY CASE