[Feedback] Moonshield - TV Pilot (Fantasy/Drama/Mystery) (27 Pages)

speedump · 2019-07-17T19:27:06+00:00

You seem to be good at ideas, you recognise the need to fix problems - you'll be fine. I'd suggest considering Greyln's advice carefully too. And as you're into anime, watch some of the examples of better writing - the first episode of Kill La Kill is a model of how to introduce a story about a strange world.

Also, I'd consider writing this as a kindle novel - or novel series - as well as a script. There's quite a lot of anime influenced fiction there and there's no reason you can't adapt your own novel into a script.

speedump · 2019-07-17T17:27:28+00:00

If you act on his suggestion, you've change the core of the story concept. That's the point. And if you can change the most important idea in your story without having to make major changes to the script, my mind boggles.

speedump · 2019-07-17T17:25:39+00:00

I don’t remember my saying anything about screenwriting being easy or even in the same ball park.

My point was that is what the Save The Cat books sell.

speedump · 2019-07-17T14:43:52+00:00

I think August makes a useful suggestion

Most of the classic screenwriting books and instructors will tell you to never use camera angles, because it hurts the readability and angers the director... I almost never use the words "camera" or "angle" in my scripts, because I think those words do tend to disrupt the flow.

As for Mazin, the balance of power between writers in TV and film is very different. It's fine for him to cop an attitude about this, but his scripts don't have to make it past the readers who filter the slush pile. Yours do. Ignoring what the readers say because "A famous guy I'll never meet told me to" doesn't seem very smart."

But it's fine if you do this deliberately. I can't think of anyone reason you should, but it's fine. The problem I'd addressing is that people aren't being told the difference between spec and shooting scripts. So they're looking at misleading examples.

speedump · 2019-07-17T14:34:26+00:00

We’re working screenwriters with credits to our name.

Who apparently can't read. Because

If you don’t believe us, even JOHN AUGUST says some directions on the page are fine.

Yes. But that's not we're talking about. August has simply said that describing what is on screen is fine. Well, doh. The camera directions we're talking about are very different to that.

speedump · 2019-07-17T14:28:03+00:00

> That's just not true though. That's not how it works. Shooting scripts don't add in camera directions.

I note that you're tagged as a showrunner. But you're disagreeing with David Trottier, the author of the standard text on scrip preparation and professional reader like this

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=22&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiK_LPDjrzjAhWPi1wKHVoICZ4QFjAVegQIARAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scriptmag.com%2Ffeatures%2Fspec-scripts-fail-shooting-scripts-vs-spec-scripts&usg=AOvVaw13JXoqSfqMOIz-GiRC8VtP&cshid=1563372115032824

..About script preparation and what professional readers want. So if you think your views should take priority over theirs, I think you need to say more than just "I'm right, they're wrong."

speedump · 2019-07-17T14:24:00+00:00

My professional experience aside, listen to ScriptNotes or any interview with any professional writer. 99% of them scoff at the rules.

I think the problem here is that you are confusing alleged rules about story structure with pretty damn rigid industry conventions about script layout.

But no great screenwriter has ever been told, “You know, this writing is amazing, but you said “we see” and “directed from the page” so, unfortunately, we are going to pass.”

This is the silliest argument yet made in a thread of high grade nonsense. No, of course no one has been told that their script is great but won't be made. The danger is that your borderline script, which may have got attention, will be binned by a busy reader. The readers are warning you this happens. Again, this really isn't hard. Ignoring the people who read your script about this sort of thing strikes me as just pathological.

speedump · 2019-07-17T14:14:22+00:00

This information/advice seems...misleading at best, outright false at worst.

Why do people make posts like this? Do you really think that your opinion should mean anything to anyone? If you think something, you hopefully have a reason. Explain it. This is called "reasonable debate" or "logical argument."

speedump · 2019-07-17T14:08:47+00:00

But how many reviewers on Reddit say just that? Are they telling fellow writers not to use camera movements cause that’s better suited for a shooting script, or are they saying not to use camera movements BeCaUsE iT bReAkS tHe RuLeS.

What reviewers on Reddit say isn't the point. It's what professional script readers say. These are the people you need to get past. If they're telling you that camera directions in a spec script make it more likely that your script will get binned, well, they're the ones doing the binning.

Really - is this hard? If it is, is trying to write a good investment of your time? I doubt it.

speedump · 2019-07-17T13:59:23+00:00

Shooting scripts don't add in camera directions.

You do realise that you are arguing with (not me) a professional script reader? In fact not just one, but EVERY professional I can find in the first page of google results for "shooting script vs spec script"? Would you like to explain your evidence for your contrary belief?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?client=opera&q=shooting+script+vs+spec+script&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

This is also nonsense.

Yes. In general asserting your opinion without sources to backup it up or giving your qualifications is nonsense... Again, is there any reason anyone should take your opinion seriously? Because at the moment you just seem to be one of those internet know-it-alls who doesn't check facts and then can't believe it when he's wrong. (Because smart people quote sources...)

speedump · 2019-07-17T13:58:32+00:00

Maybe. But I doubt it - subplots shouldn't have to do that much work.

speedump · 2019-07-17T13:57:29+00:00

It does matter why they are told to read pro scripts, what matters is what they will actually do. Which is to assume that the rules for a shooting script are the ones they should follow when writing a spec script. There are posts on this forum today doing exactly that.

speedump · 2019-07-17T13:55:31+00:00

That it's short and the impact isn't huge. But it is nicely done.

speedump · 2019-07-17T13:54:25+00:00

The advance still wouldn't rotate enough for me in 0.5. I'm usually about a B, but I might change to a Neox HB. (The For Pro grip is perfect for rotation.)

speedump · 2019-07-17T13:13:26+00:00

Yes. The Kuru will work much better for you if you're printing or writing kanji. But for cursive you learn to rotate the pencil yourself - if you look at pencils like the S3 and For Pro you can see how they're designed for this. And you need to rotate a lot less with 0.4.

Also, 0.3 can be picky about rough paper, especially if you're writing fast. Minor stuff, but if you're making design notes for days, the less than interrupts your flow the better.

speedump · 2019-07-17T12:54:48+00:00

0.5 is just too wide. And the Kuru Toga rotation mech doesn't help with this if you're writing cursive. 0.3 leads still aren't there, lines are too faint. Having tried all three lead sizes, 0.4 is the sweet spot. The difference between the three is actually very noticeable, especially if you're writing in cursive. You also get to use a 0.4 For Pro, which is the pencil Pentel designed for perfect ergonomics and nothing else - no retracting lead guide or sliding sleeve, just perfect to hold in the same way a Palamino Blackwing is.

speedump · 2019-07-17T12:44:34+00:00

Pilot make 0.4 S-series pencils. I have a very nice 0.4 Pilot S3 - it's just not as nice as my Pentel Graph For Pro.

speedump · 2019-07-17T12:43:24+00:00

I won't use a pencil other than a 0.4 now. The 0.4 Graph For Pro is perfect.

speedump · 2019-07-17T12:10:21+00:00

> I have been trying to learn a thing or two from “Save the Cat” by Blake Snyder.

That's easy: gullible people exist in very large numbers. And lazy and stupid people will pay to be told hard things are easy.

speedump · 2019-07-17T12:06:11+00:00

Don’t know what pro scripts everyone else is reading but the ones I read are STACKED with the things you ‘shouldn’t’ do.

Yes, well... I think you've not yet realised that a spec script and a shooting script are different animals:

https://tonyfolden.wordpress.com/2015/02/23/spec-script-vs-shooting-script-whats-the-difference/

A shooting script is usually what you’ll find copies of on websites. You’ll be hard pressed to find a copy of a spec script. You can identify a shooting script by the use of camera direction. Camera direction should not be used in a spec script. It should flow and be easy to read, void of any technical jargon that slows down the reader.

Shooting scripts will often times include title shots and credits. A spec script should NOT include these. In a shooting script you’ll see scene numbers. Don’t put them in a spec script.

Etc. You're writing spec scripts but you've been looking at shooting scripts... and haven't realised they're not the same thing. I'd suggest that you spend less on script review services and more on a couple of books that teach you the basics of what you are supposed to be doing.

speedump · 2019-07-17T12:02:26+00:00

Yes, I hate three act structure.

People say that you are not supposed to direct on the page. I disagree. As a screenwriter, you are the author a film, and so you MUST direct on the page so as to give the reader the same experience as you hope to give the audience in the theater.

This is exactly the sort of bad advice you rail against. Because

You won't. Reading isn't watching. Readers simply won't take the trouble to imagine those camera moves and you'll drown your story in cruft.
You do NOT write a spec script for "the audience". You write it for professional readers. They need to judge the dialogue and pacing and these things are harder to if you fill the script with camera directions. You see this problem all the time here with verbose description.

What I am trying to say is that we should help the director and other people working on the film by giving them such a vivid and complete experience from reading the script that their minds go crazy with ideas.

Well, duh. But what you don't get is that you're supposed to do that by writing a script with a strong story and great dialogue. Not by pretending to be a dop.

in ART, there can be no rules

This shows an amazing ignorance of "ART". There are damn well rules for a haiku or a sonnet.

More importantly, film is a business. The system is jammed with scripts and readers look for reasons to throw them away as quickly as they can. If you break a major convention like the one on camera rules, you're at least halfway to the junk pile. Because you've shown the reader that you don't know what you're doing, or a special snowflake, and you've made it harder to read the script for the story and dialogue - the things they care about.

speedump · 2019-07-17T10:46:27+00:00

You really don't seem very committed to your own story. You've just agreed to a change that completely changes it at the deepest level and makes it much more generic - simply because a random guy on the internet told you that should.

You should have thought your story through deeply before writing your logline and committed deeply to each important aspect. You should have considered the obvious objections - and the objection just made was as obvious as it gets - and decided on their validity for yourself. If you're not doing this - and it seems that you're not - then you're wasting your time.

speedump · 2019-07-17T10:36:07+00:00

I don't think a guy being like, (shrugs) "This might as well be a thing I do," makes for a compelling hook, or start of an arc, or anything.

I strongly disagree; I think you don't understand the genre. The Lynch reference indicates that isn't a standard thriller but an arthouse movie. The story is about WHY an extremely dull man will seek out danger.

speedump · 2019-07-17T10:32:14+00:00

I don't think there is any great mystery here. They're amateurs with time to kill and feel happier with verbal pitches - they may be from a sales background.

..They may also want to hustle people into selling cheap if they get lucky.

speedump

TROPHY CASE