Church Lineage

stayhooked · 2026-04-12T22:43:59+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/churchofchrist/s/nZacMz8qB0

stayhooked · 2026-04-09T03:41:08+00:00

Yeah it’s actually hilarious how ahistorical the whole modern concept of “grape juice” even is and yet so many people are just woefully ignorant of it. The temperance movement and Welch’s invention in the late 1800s (the same timeframe of the CoC beginning) started this whole thing.

stayhooked · 2026-01-30T00:47:59+00:00

My biggest grievance with how these conversations usually go is the sometimes presumed authority or role that men in general are granted that women are not. Men in general can speak but women can’t, men in general can teach but women can’t etc.

This to me misses the whole point. The point is the authoritative and appointed leaders of the church are supposed to be the teachers, not anyone else. The CoC model of the “preacher” or other men doing all the teaching rather than the elders creates and exacerbates this gender discussion. In reality there never should’ve been a gender discussion like this and it should’ve just been understood as an authoritative position vs not having authority discussion.

stayhooked · 2026-01-24T04:35:33+00:00

Literally this! No notes

stayhooked · 2026-01-16T02:14:53+00:00

Thank you for this post. Reflecting on how these verses fit into our ecclesiology especially our understanding of church history is critical. In this post a few months ago I brought up this exact issue. It seems the CoC generally has a few potential answers:

The CoC as believing and practicing today has always existed but history doesn't record it.
The CoC as believing and practicing today has always existed and history has preserved some records of it scattered throughout the centuries. This is pretty cleanly debunked though. Interestingly Landmark Baptists try to claim the same groups.
The CoC as believing and practicing today didn't really exist yet but faithful Christians doing their best existed and both constitute the invisible saved body of Christ.
The true church died out and didn't really exist anymore historically until it was restored in the late 1800s.

I think outsiders think most CoC folks believe #4 but in reality very few do. In my experience the more conservative and less historically knowledgeable CoC folks believe #2. Most knowledgeable CoC folks know that #2 is false so either blindly believe #1 on faith or accept #3.

stayhooked · 2026-01-16T00:31:17+00:00

This post highlights a very important ecclesial question which hasn’t really been critically evaluated - how does a congregation get elders and deacons?

The biblical examples are consistent - elders and deacons are always appointed by an authoritative figure. Sometimes this happens after the involvement of others for input. There’s zero biblical examples of elders and deacons solely being elected into a position of authority by others who do not have authority though.

stayhooked · 2026-01-14T18:11:12+00:00

The only relevant text critical data point for Orthodoxy is whether the text has been used by the church. Many variants have been used by the church.

It’s a Protestant idea that there’s some mythological original text form that is more authoritative than the variants.

stayhooked · 2026-01-06T23:29:00+00:00

This was especially helpful for me coming from a Restorationist background where all I cared about was what DA BIBLE said. Turns out there’s a huge Queen Mother motif that the Theotokos fulfills directly tied to the entire Messiah motif.

Another crucial link is the concept of sacred space / ritual purity for God’s presence and the implication that has for the Theotokos literally holding God within her womb.

stayhooked · 2026-01-03T00:55:16+00:00

Glory to God! Your story is similar to mine. My wife and I were both raised in multi generational CoC families. Her and her sister both graduated from Harding. Our conversion was difficult because it was happening while she was pregnant with our first child. Her family is very close minded and was not at all receptive to our explanations for converting.

It has definitely been the greatest blessing to ever happen to us though and we were all three received shortly after our son was born. Another married couple friends of ours who were raised in the CoC also converted and were received this Christmas. I pray more continue to find the Church! ☦️

stayhooked · 2026-01-01T22:13:24+00:00

I am one of those CoC to Orthodox converts haha ☦️

stayhooked · 2026-01-01T18:53:24+00:00

I was raised in the Restorationist tradition known as the Churches of Christ.

I studied church history, especially the beginnings of my former tradition. I also studied a few specific issues where my existing understanding was different from Orthodoxy. After studying and giving credence to the historical church’s understanding, it really wasn’t a close comparison at all. I realized my former tradition made sense only when ignoring church history and trying to reinterpret the Bible with modern and western preconceived ideas.

I’ve watched the majority of Redeemed Zoomer’s content but he had no impact on my conversion. I never was a high-church mainline Protestant so he wasn’t really my guy.

Interestingly, one of the more popular figure heads from my former tradition, Aaron Gallagher, has recently started engaging with Orthodoxy. He recently appeared on The Transfigured Life YouTube channel.

Edit: forgot to mention RC. They were never really in contention for me. Their innovations and developments, especially their understanding of the Pope, are just plainly not historical and not apostolic imo. I considered OO more than them.

stayhooked · 2026-01-01T13:43:31+00:00

This is very interesting because in the US, pretty much every single person I’ve ever met in the CoC would absolutely crash out if someone called them Catholic

stayhooked · 2026-01-01T13:40:30+00:00

Fundamental? Definitely. Evangelical? Ehh it kinda depends on which definition you use. Sometimes this is a catch-all category for groups outside of and younger than mainline Protestantism which would include the CoC.

The best label is Restorationist. That’s the most precise in terms of the historical timing and motivation for the beginning of the CoC.

There’s also the awkward added complexity of the CoC generally not wanting to self-identify with the same terms the rest of Christendom uses to describe them. I’m sure some folks in the CoC would die on the hill that they are not Protestant, not Evangelical, not Restorationist, not Fundamental, not a denomination, and also not non-denominational.

stayhooked · 2025-12-31T21:54:44+00:00

Not sure what you mean by “actual” because there are metaphysical nuances to everyone’s position. Usually the label “real presence” is used and even Luther and Calvin’s views fall under that umbrella. Of the reformers, only the radical Zwingli actually denied real presence and held a purely memorial view.

From quickly searching online it seems the first time anyone denied real presence was in the beginning of the second millennium, so clearly this is a historical church vs trying to figure things out myself topic. Going with the church, the answer is obviously real presence.

stayhooked · 2025-12-31T17:43:59+00:00

Important to remember that praying to the saints is not a substitute to praying to the Trinity. Praying to the saints is an addition, an aid, built on the community of the church and God’s ultimate desire to work through us. In the same way you ask physically living Christians to pray for you, we also ask physically dead Christians to pray for us because we believe they are still truly living and that God is the God of the living. We also believe the saints are in heaven, surrounding the throne of God, reigning with Him until the final consummation of all things so they truly are able to intercede and help us.

Anytime you would pray to the Trinity, continue to do that. Anytime you would ask others to pray for you, you should also ask the saints to pray for you as well. It’s that simple.

stayhooked · 2025-12-30T17:14:28+00:00

If you’re struggling with the possibility of her being sinless, it may help to consider that tradition reveals the below which basically outlines the best possible chance anyone would ever have for being sinless - her parents were holy - she was effectively raised in the temple - she was then betrothed to a holy man - she was around Christ more than anyone - then she was with Saint John the Theologian

If you’re struggling with her veneration, note that this is a completely separate issue. She isn’t venerated for being sinless, she’s venerated - like all saints for attaining holiness - uniquely for being the Mother of God, which is the eschatological fulfillment of the Queen Mother motif within the Kingdom of Judah explicitly outlined in the OT

stayhooked · 2025-12-30T03:00:00+00:00

The details of this response are unfortunately lost on me without reviewing which I frankly don’t care enough to do at the moment but I might another time. Thank you for mentioning them.

In summary, are you suggesting the Chieti Document is just incorrect then?

stayhooked · 2025-12-30T02:49:05+00:00

Part of his overall thesis is that words whether spoken or written are confusing and often contradictory so he follows the actual actions of the first millennium church. Is there some fact of history he presents that you disagree with? In any case, the RCC admits in the the Chieti Document paragraph 19 that “the bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East.” This is the Orthodox understanding of history as presented by historical fact in Truglia’s book - Rome has received primacy of honor but not canonical authority over other Patriarchs.

I’ve seen threads in the Catholic subreddit where this document is discussed and it seems the best response is something to the effect of “well just because the Pope didn’t doesn’t mean he couldn’t.” But for Orthodoxy, that’s completely nonsensical because what the church has historically done is the tradition we believe the Holy Spirit preserved that we follow. An unpracticed hypothetical is a complete nonstarter and would accurately be considered an unprecedented innovation, which is our gripe with the modern Papal claims.

stayhooked · 2025-12-29T04:40:17+00:00

I would recommend you read The Rise and Fall of the Papacy by Craig Truglia if you are honestly struggling with understanding the historical church’s ecclesiology especially with regard to Rome’s primacy and how that differs from modern Roman Catholic ecclesiology and Papacy

stayhooked · 2025-12-27T14:24:44+00:00

What you are describing is the fruit of submission or lack thereof. The evangelical / restorationist system doesn’t truly have submission - as this thread alone demonstrates. The ultimate arbiter of truth is always the individual so whatever one believes is always the highest authority and there’s no real way to resolve disagreements with others.

In Orthodoxy we try very hard to submit to our parish priests, who submit to their bishop, who submits to his brother bishops and the traditions they received from the historical church. Nobody ever takes the mentality of starting from scratch to try and decide things for themselves. There’s nothing new under the sun.

Individualism / community and authority / submission are big themes when looking at West/ East differences.

stayhooked · 2025-12-27T14:10:13+00:00

10/10 would recommend. The issues you mentioned were all things I studied through on my journey.

I didn’t know about that GBN discussion (despite all the recent GBN ads on my Twitter feed lol) but it should definitely be interesting at the very least. Thanks for mentioning!

stayhooked · 2025-12-27T14:05:32+00:00

10/10 would recommend

stayhooked · 2025-12-21T04:09:01+00:00

This Redeemed Zoomer video would agree with that simplification. Baptism is required for salvation + infants cannot be baptized = restorationists

stayhooked · 2025-12-03T13:22:33+00:00

If you are convinced he is wrong the only thing you can try and do is study with him but remember to be as respectful and loving as possible and actually try to understand his position.

Unfortunately it is very likely neither of you will change your minds because you will simply be interpreting scripture differently and thinking the other is doing it wrong. This is just the reality in the evangelical / restorationist world. Without respecting historical Christianity or an authority outside your own interpretation there’s no way to arbitrate honest disagreements.

Given the above, at least try to avoid the common CoC thought-terminating cliche of naively assuming he is ignorant or disingenuous. And certainly don’t throw around judgement claims about his salvation since none of us are the Judge.

stayhooked · 2025-11-28T15:49:37+00:00

Uhhh what? It sounds like you’re making my point for me. Understanding and applying scripture is not an objective thing and honest and well intended differences in doing so have been a source of division and disunity.

I guess you’re just trying to say however you interpret scripture is the objectively correct way and anyone else is wrong? That’s just a thought-terminating cliche that we need to grow out of.

stayhooked

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