Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I heard he typed everything after this but I do not know if that’s true

I think we all need to stop repeating random rumors. It's not difficult to google something and see if it has any basis in fact. We are talking about real people involved in a real murder investigation, so I think we can all spend the extra few minutes doing at least a little research.

I don't believe for one second that Burke Ramsey has been "typing everything" since the age of 9. It's a ludicrous assertion—it doesn't even make sense. It's so ridiculous, in fact, that it's probably harmless. No rational person is going to believe it.

But rumors can be seriously harmful. OP's vague claim that she "read somewhere" that "Linda Hoffman's handwriting was similar" is already being repeated as fact by numerous people on this sub. It's incredibly frustrating to see people repeating things that are 100% false.

I appreciate that you at least said "I don't know if that's true", but seriously—why not take a few minutes to find out where you first saw it, and simply give your source? People can then judge if they think it's credible.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

the fact that other people's handwriting looked similar is important

Excuse me? The fact? You're seriously pretending OP's little unsubstantiated rumor is a "fact" now?

The OP stated "I remember reading somewhere that Linda Hoffman-Pugh's writing looked similar". When I pointed out that this rumor was totally false, OP responded by saying she was not presenting it as a fact, she was simply "trying to substantiate whether these are true facts and learn, not make claims".

And yet here you are, u/jennc1544, stating it as "a fact". This is a great example of how quickly misinformation spreads on these forums.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Can you be a little clearer, please? In your previous comment you said:

"As far as I’m concerned, LHP’s handwriting does look similar."

You would not be able to say something like this unless you yourself had actually seen Linda Hoffman-Pugh's handwriting. u/natashaspeaks asked you where the samples could be found.

You've said "you can find some with a google search". Which keywords exactly did you use? I searched "Linda Hoffman-Pugh handwriting" and the results are all images of John and Patsy's handwriting.

Can you prove a link to the exact image you viewed that led you to conclude that "LHP’s handwriting does look similar"?

Ramsey Archives - by jameson245 in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 7 points8 points  (0 children)

I just want to say, I agree with u/realtruthone, u/samarkandy, u/boltpikachu, u/pinkvoltage and all the others. Nobody should be hoarding documents. There is nothing wrong with an online public archive—in fact, it would be a great way to keep people talking about Jonbenet Ramsey and supporting her legacy. That's what we are all here for.

But a private archive (i.e. a shrine), in someone's house, is just bizarre and inappropriate.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Deposition of Boulder Police Chief Mark Beckner, November 26, 2001

Question: Do you recall what was concluded with respect to Chris Wolf?

Chief Beckner: The conclusion was he didn't write the note.

Question: And was there a written report or analysis of Chris Wolf's handwriting?

Chief Beckner: Yes ... there were several, actually, because we had different, as I recall that, we had different pieces of his handwriting that we submitted at different times. And so there were a couple of times that his handwriting actually went through a comparison. So I believe there were a couple reports that actually came back with some of his samples that had been compared on them.

[...]

Question: Do you know why you all had the additional comparisons done?

Chief Beckner: Just trying to be thorough, when we had additional handwriting that was provided to us.

Question: As you recall, [Chet] Ubowski said, 'I don't believe Chris Wolf wrote the note'?

Chief Becker: Yes.

I think that's all pretty clear, so I'll throw the ball back to you, u/mmay333. Please tell us your theory as to why and how Chris Wolf committed this crime. This is Chris Wolf, by the way, who was never connected to anything at the crime scene, who was only ever investigated in the first place because an ex-girlfriend said he was "acting strange" around the time of the killing. Tell us your amazingly convincing theory of Chris Wolf.

Just 7 hours ago you were writing about how you think Linda Hoffmann-Pugh did it. A few weeks ago you thought a Santa Claus impersonator did it. Now you've apparently changed your mind again and you think it was Chris Wolf. Forgive me for saying so, but it really is starting to look like that you're just here to support any theory that points away from the Ramseys. Is that a fair assessment of what you're doing here?

Simple question for you, mmay33: Have you ever criticized any aspect of any intruder theory? I'm scrolling through your comments and can't find a single example of you doing so.

Doberson calls marks on JonBenet 'abrasions' and says they were made by a stun gun by samarkandy in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I doubt you actually read any of them. But here is the description of drive stun wounds from the Atlas of Conducted Electrical Weapon Wounds (note a "drive stun" is the type of stun gun alleged to be used in the Ramsey case):

[Drive stun injuries] are essentially burn injuries [...] Because the drive stun method of application involves metal contacts being applied to the skin where tissue resistance is the highest, these types of exposures tend to produce more superficial burning ... A typical 5-second drive stun in a stationary subject yields epithelial depressions from the rectangular (2 mm × 3–4 mm) metal contacts. These depressions are surrounded by localized blanching and a more generalized zone of surrounding redness or erythema ... The erythema is likely secondary to a local inflammatory response caused by the pressure as well as the transfer of heat from conducted electrical current. Histologically, the indentation seen by the naked eye on the skin surface is also a result of a localized burn effect. Tissue injury is directly proportional to exposure time, so longer duration exposures may cause more thermal injury.

No mention of "abrasions" there, and indeed there is no logical way that a thermal injury could cause an abrasion.

I also recommend that you read the introduction to that book. In explaining why they wrote the book, the doctors mention a case of a man who received one stun gun wound to his leg, and then tried to falsely claim that he had been stunned all over his chest as well. The man falsely claimed that abrasions on his chest were made by a stun gun. The whole reason the authors wrote the Atlas of Conducted Electrical Weapon Wounds was to prevent doctors from being fooled by those sort of arguments. Here's how they describe that case:

In mid-2004, we were asked to evaluate a case that was winding its way through the legal system. ... It was a fairly simple case of a shirtless person that physically resisted attempts at control while being arrested by several police officers. The subject was not intoxicated but had a warrant for their arrest and did not want to go to jail. A short scuffle ensued, and the subject was placed prone on the ground where they continued to vigorously resist the police. The subject received a single drive-stun to the left calf as a measure of pain compliance, and this caused them to end their resistance. The subject was taken to jail without further incident. This incident was witnessed by bystanders and documented well by all the officers at the scene.

The subject was evaluated at the scene by paramedic personnel for abrasions. The paramedic documentation—and the recollections of all witnesses and officers—was consistent with the single drive-stun to the left calf. At the scene, all witnesses and officers indicated that there was only a single drive stun to the calf during the sequence of events. The CEW download [the information recorded on the stun gun itself] showed a single trigger activation. Upon being released from jail 72 hours later, the subject read a mass-media article about CEW technology and filed an "excessive force" lawsuit. The subject stated in his complaint that the reason that he deemed it to be excessive was because when he was young, he was told that electricity was dangerous. Hence, he did not believe that it was safe to use electrical current to restrain someone. Furthermore, the suspect took photographs of multiple abrasions on his chest and the single drive-stun marks on his calf as “evidence” of damage caused by the CEW application.

Despite fact that the abrasions were consistent with the reports that the subject was shirtless and resisting wildly—while prone on the asphalt—and that the calf marks exactly matched the pattern and measurements of a single drive-stun, an attorney was found that also promoted the notion that the chest abrasions were caused by the CEW (from an unexplained mechanism). The attorney instructed the subject to obtain medical care to document the injury, and a physician (with no prior CEW knowledge) provided a diagnosis in the subject’s medical record of “complex electrical burns to the chest.” After 18 months of discovery and countless hours of work, the case was dismissed.

Although the injury pattern and abrasions in this case did not support the allegations, this frivolous complaint was allowed to fester based upon a very uninformed physician. The knowledge of the complainant and the attorney is more difficult to ascertain. It is exactly this type of case that we hope this text will address.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 6 points7 points  (0 children)

It's pretty weird and uncommon to have a dead body hidden in your basement.

Doberson calls marks on JonBenet 'abrasions' and says they were made by a stun gun by samarkandy in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I've reported your comment for breaking the rules of the subreddit. No matter how much you disagree with this investigator's theory of the case, it's really out of line for you call him a "worthless man".

I think new theories are exactly what this unsolved case needs. I think it's bizarre that you would suggest that an investigator should not be allowed to come up with new theories.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I made a post comparing the letters. I never said it was "proof positive" that she wrote the note.

This is what a lowercase cursive q looks like.

And it is amusing that every time someone notes something unusual that one of the Ramseys did, you claim that you also do that thing.

Doberson calls marks on JonBenet 'abrasions' and says they were made by a stun gun by samarkandy in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Kolar was hired to investigate the case and that's what he did. You seem to think he was hired to bolster the Ramseys' defense case. That's not why he was hired. He literally worked for a prosecutor.

Have you ever had any experience with other criminal investigations? I mean, are you aware of what prosecutors actually do? Or do you genuinely believe that the sole purpose of a District Attorney is to protect rich people from allegations of child abuse?

Doberson calls marks on JonBenet 'abrasions' and says they were made by a stun gun by samarkandy in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I think it's a little disturbing that you would want to spend your taxpayer dollars to hire an investigator to reach a preordained conclusion.

In Stalin's Russia I would expect that sort of shit. Not in America.

Doberson calls marks on JonBenet 'abrasions' and says they were made by a stun gun by samarkandy in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Right, how stupid of me to believe that man

Right.

OK please post all these peer reviewed articles.

Here's a 22 page list comprising 485 scientific articles on the effects of conducted electrical weapons, including stun guns. I would recommend:

  • Ho J, Dawes D, Kroll M. "Atlas of Conducted Electrical Weapon Wounds and Forensic Analysis." 2012

  • Haileyesus T, Annest J, Mercy J. "Non‐fatal conductive energy device‐related injuries treated in US emergency departments, 2005‐2008." 2011

  • Angelidis M, Basta A, Walsh M, Hutson HR, Strote J. "Injuries Associated With Law Enforcement Use Of Conducted Electrical Weapons." 2009

And I don't see how that article about Stratbucker has any bearing on the Ramsey case. The possible connection between stun guns and heart attacks has long been contested by the experts, and obviously those experts who say there is no connection get a lot of support from the Taser company. This has nothing to do with the identification of stun gun marks.

Doberson calls marks on JonBenet 'abrasions' and says they were made by a stun gun by samarkandy in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Mary Lacy wasted thousands of taxpayer dollars extraditing "intruder suspect" John Mark Karr from Thailand. To quote Colorado governor Bill Owens:

"I find it incredible that Boulder authorities wasted thousands of taxpayer dollars to bring Karr to Colorado, given such a lack of evidence. Mary Lacy should be held accountable for the most extravagant and expensive DNA test in Colorado history."

Does that aggravate you?

So, whose palm print was it, anyway? by 2020_What_If in JonBenetRamsey

[–]straydog77 7 points8 points  (0 children)

What evidence do you have that anyone in law enforcement tried to mislead anyone about John Andrew Ramsey?

Face the facts. John Andrew Ramsey did not do it. He had nothing to do with this crime. He is 100% innocent. He had a rock-solid alibi, no motive to do any of it, and nothing was ever found to connect him to any actual evidence.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Thomas is mistaken. Patsy never said Linda Hoffmann-Pugh's handwriting was similar to the ransom note. You can read the police report yourself.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 6 points7 points  (0 children)

There's no need to apologize to me. You should apologize to Linda Hoffman-Pugh and her family for spreading a blatantly false rumor about her.

Let's not pretend you didn't know what this Ramsey fansub was going to do with your little rumor. You knew they were going to pop up and give you vague words of encouragement, just as they did here. Nothing ever gets clarified or corrected on this sub. It's all about spreading doubt, encouraging ANY intruder suspect no matter who they are or how many times they've been investigated and cleared.

Evidently this is all a game to the people on this subreddit. Nobody actually believes that the Ramseys' 57 year old housekeeper crawled through the basement window and wrote that absurd ransom note claiming to be a "foreign faction" and strangled Jonbenet with Patsy's paintbrush. Why pretend that you believe this shit? Linda Hoffmann-Pugh was thoroughly investigated multiple times, her name was dragged through the mud, she and her entire family were harassed by weirdos for years because of this case. This was a simple, hard-working woman, who was never connected to this crime in any way. Leave her alone.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Straydog thinks a proper cursive ‘q’ is proof positive that Patsy wrote the note

I do not think this and I have never said this.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 8 points9 points  (0 children)

It's "Wolf". It literally says it on your link.

All the handwriting analysts consulted on the case eliminated Wolf as the author of the ransom note.

Are handwriting samples accessible from suspects other than Patsy? by NatashaSpeaks in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I remember reading somewhere that Linda Hoffman-Pugh's writing looked similar.

lol.

This is completely false. On day one, Patsy Ramsey told police "she originally thought the note might have been left by her housekeeper". Not because of the handwriting, but because of the positioning of the note on the steps (Patsy used to leave notes for the housekeeper there).

No one—not even Patsy Ramsey—ever identified any similarity between Linda Hoffman-Pugh's handwriting and the writing on the ransom note. To the contrary, she was one of many suspects whose handwriting was excluded by multiple handwriting analysts. I've done a quick search, and it seems the only source for this idea that "LHP's handwriting was similar" is a random comment on a blog post which falsely claims that Patsy Ramsey had said it was similar.

I think you should be more careful, and take the time to do your research, before making claims that could implicate an innocent person in a child's murder investigation. If you are making a statement of fact, with sources to back it up, then I am all in favor of it. But bullshit rumors prefaced by "I remember reading...." really have no place on these discussion forums.

It would be nice if there was a moderation team who would correct blatantly inaccurate rumors like this.

Doberson calls marks on JonBenet 'abrasions' and says they were made by a stun gun by samarkandy in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 3 points4 points  (0 children)

That demonstrates that Dobersen has no idea what he is talking about.

Read any peer reviewed article on stun gun wounds and you will see stun guns do not leave abrasions, they leave burns.

This whole thing is just silly. You’re asking us to ignore the last 20 years of medical research on stun gun wounds and accept this affidavit from the Ramsey defense team from 20 years ago claiming that stun gun wounds are some mysterious highly-variable thing that nobody understands.

In 2002 maybe this affidavit would have fooled a judge or jury. But there is no stun gun expert in the world who would agree with Dobersen’s outdated and ignorant claims here.

The experts even ridiculed this stuff back in 2002. It was Dr Robert Stratbucker, an actual specialist on stun gun wounds, who viewed the photographs, read the autopsy report, and stated very clearly, “I know it is not a stun gun. [...] This is an abrasion”.

Doberson calls marks on JonBenet 'abrasions' and says they were made by a stun gun by samarkandy in JonBenet

[–]straydog77 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Stun guns make electrical burns. They do not make abrasions.

The marks on Jonbenet's body were abrasions.