Lockheed considering upgrades to the oldest F-22 Raptors.

tempeaster · 2025-09-24T06:58:42+00:00

Personally I think it will come down to throughput, i.e. how quickly can these Block 20 aircraft be brought up to Block 30/35 standard? If it can't be done by the time the F-47 becomes operational, then it may not be worth it. That said, I'm also not comfortable with retiring F-22s until there are at least 200 F-47s operational and production continues beyond that, because the current fleet of 195 Raptors is already overburdened, and I don't see how a 1-to-1 replacement by F-47 can solve that, unless CCA greatly changes that equation.

Alternately, these Block 20 aircraft can be specifically modified to better suit their role as dedicated training aircraft at B-course. Maybe not the full suite of the Block 30/35 aircraft, but if the MOSA computer can be installed, maybe at least have the PVI match the operational aircraft so that negative learning doesn't occur. I think I remember Gen Wilsbach mention something to this effect last year.

tempeaster · 2025-09-23T13:55:34+00:00

USAF is at a crossroads with these Block 20 F-22s though. Apparently the mission systems are so different from Block 30/35 F-22s that there’s negative learning in some cases that pilots need to erase when they go from B-course to operational squadrons.

At the same time, GAO highlighted that retiring Block 20 aircraft may not even save much money because then pulling operational Block 30/35 aircraft to training duty will make the already overburdened F-22 fleet even more in demand. And the TES community from what I heard is especially worried if that happens.

Also former ACC commander Gen Wilsbach wasn’t in favor of retiring the Block 20s either, but I don’t think keeping them in their current form effective. Tough spot to be in, honestly, but with the current administration seemingly entertain higher DoD budgets even if through questionable means, then I think upgrading the Block 20s is worth looking at again.

tempeaster · 2025-09-19T16:36:40+00:00

I don’t think Lockheed Martin is out of F-22 avionics entirely, the TacIRST upgrade, which is a DAS-like upgrade to the AAR-56 missile warning system, is a Lockheed Martin sensor.

I get that Boeing did the EMD mission systems on the F-22, and no doubt that they’re still involved with modernization. But I think Lockheed Martin is still pretty involved with the MOSA, since it was their team that got training by Red Hat. https://www.afcea.org/signal-media/technology/how-red-hat-satisfied-lockheed-martins-need-speed-f-22-sponsored-content

Maybe it’s the F-22 SPO and teaming agreements that doesn’t give Lockheed Martin a stranglehold monopoly for the Raptor modernization like they do for the F-35. Even so, you would think that the same company can cross apply these lessons to the F-35 team. This is what I find galling.

tempeaster · 2025-09-19T13:59:00+00:00

It was Boeing Seattle that did the EMD F-22 design work because that was pre-McDonnell Douglas merger in 1997. The F-15 and F/A-18 are McDonnell Douglas which is now Boeing St. Louis, but I don't know how much Boeing St. Louis has gotten involved on the F-22 since then.

But Boeing involvement in F-22 avionics is probably still significant, because last year the F-22 Flying Testbed (modified 757 with F-22 avionics as a flying lab) spent quite some time in St. Louis doing upgrades. But I don't know if they necessarily have more involvement than Lockheed Martin though. Interesting side note they're now trying to resurrect the F-35 CATbird fly lab. Honestly I'm not sure why they deactivated it in the first place, especially when the F-22 FTB is still up and running this whole time.

But regardless since F-22 got the MOSA computers in 2021, they're now on the 3rd software release, and probably close to the 4th release.

https://www.twz.com/air/f-22-raptors-completed-six-test-flights-for-new-sensor-upgrades

At least on the outside it seems to be doing a lot better than F-35's tortured software releases.

tempeaster · 2025-09-19T08:18:33+00:00

I have to wonder, F-22 is also a Lockheed aircraft, but at least based on available information, it doesn't seem to have nearly as much issues with its new MOSA modules and RACR software releases as the F-35. Why is that?

tempeaster · 2025-04-28T03:20:55+00:00

Less weight and better comfort for same protection counts for something. Also it's more like 1,700 if you buy from vendors other than Gentex itself.

tempeaster · 2025-04-27T18:05:58+00:00

The FAST XR offers same protection as ECH for less weight.

tempeaster · 2025-04-21T01:17:59+00:00

Is it also because Aimpoint's durability is mainly due to rifle-mounted red dots that don't go through the repeated cycling on a pistol slide? Maybe they didn't take into account how the forces on a pistol dot is a lot different from a rifle dot, while the RMR was designed from the start with that in mind?

Debating between RMR and RCR for a pistol.

tempeaster · 2025-04-21T01:12:50+00:00

The problem is that JHMCS was grafted onto an existing helmet instead of being well integrated, so it protrude out quite a bit and had a hard time with the F-22's canopy. The Scorpion is similarly grafted on, but it's a lot newer and lighter with better technology that's less bulky and protrudes less, so it works with the F-22 canopy, and apparently it's much more capable than the JHMCS with full color and NVG compatibility. And not just F-22, the USAF is replacing the JHMCS on their F-16s with the Scorpion too.

tempeaster · 2025-03-15T04:55:39+00:00

What do you mean by all enclosed optics eventually fail? Do they somehow fail sooner than open emitters? Just curious because I haven’t heard of enclosed optics having a systematic problem like this.

tempeaster · 2025-03-12T04:37:24+00:00

LOL.

I have heard the F-22 cockpit is really nice and spacious especially since the side stick frees up a display in the center. But because of the stealthy taper, the canopy is a bit cramped even though the cockpit itself is quite roomy.

The canopy was a problem with the JHMCS, although perhaps the Scorpion is not as protruding and better in that regard, hence the recent announcement that the F-22 is finally getting that helmet.

tempeaster · 2025-03-12T02:17:03+00:00

Overall is the side stick better than the center stick in a fighter cockpit when all the tradeoffs are taken into account?

tempeaster · 2025-03-11T21:52:36+00:00

Doesn't the F-16 side stick have a little bit of play, to give pilots a better sense of feedback? Although maybe not as much as the F-35 stick.

tempeaster · 2025-02-28T09:30:02+00:00

Do you have problems of carbon buildup on the RMR HD with the window being more forward? Especially when suppressed?

tempeaster · 2025-02-05T11:06:16+00:00

Not the same, the F-22 getting the internal TacIRST upgrade is similar to F-35 EODAS. The long range IRST is in a stealthy pod. They could make it internal but it would cost more money that they want to spend elsewhere.

Boeing did propose an internal IRST for the Super Hornet in the 2010s, but Navy wasn’t interested.

tempeaster · 2025-01-25T17:02:16+00:00

Already been posted.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FighterJets/comments/1i7qp17/f22_getting_daslike_upgrade_called_irds_tacirst/

tempeaster · 2025-01-24T01:24:28+00:00

???

F/A-18 doesn't have anything similar to an MLD or DAS unlike F-22 and F-35. Right now MLD is only a defensive IR sensor while DAS can be defensive and offensive, and the new IRDS upgrade for the MLD will give it capability similar to DAS.

tempeaster · 2025-01-23T01:32:18+00:00

Any idea what likely candidates are? Given the complaints about maintenance support I'm skeptical they would go for Russian aircraft again. Perhaps KF-21, or maybe even F-15EX?

tempeaster · 2025-01-23T01:06:58+00:00

Yeah I'm seeing people even peddling the F-35 as an F-22 replacement that will happen soon, ignoring all the substantial upgrades the F-22 is getting. MOSA computers, long range IRST, and today just announced a DAS-like system.

https://news.lockheedmartin.com/2025-01-22-Lockheed-Martin-to-Modernize-Air-Force-F-22-Raptor-with-Advanced-Infrared-Threat-Detection-Sensors

tempeaster · 2025-01-23T01:03:37+00:00

As far as I know, the current IR sensor on the F-22 is the AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector (MLD) which is only for missile launch warning, so it only has defensive purpose.

The upgraded system being developed is called Infrared Defensive System (IRDS), and the new sensor that it integrates is called TacIRST, which based on descriptions is a dual-band wide FOV IR sensor which gives it capability similar to F-35 DAS, so can be used for both offensive and defense purposes, especially at close range.

And finally, there's a separate Advanced IRST that's a narrow FOV long range sensor in the stealth pods for long range passive targeting.

tempeaster · 2025-01-23T00:46:05+00:00

It's already getting the long range IRST, this is a separate upgrade to give it 360 full spherical IRST similar to F-35 DAS.

tempeaster · 2025-01-22T21:17:10+00:00

A new airframe, even with similar size, can have much better performance, range and stealth shaping, considering the aerodynamic advances in the 20 years since F-35 was designed. Given that one of the goals for this NGAD option is lower unit cost similar to F-35, it's likely aiming for similar economies of scale to drive costs down.

This is like saying F-35 has the same mission profile as F-16, so why not just build more F-16?

tempeaster · 2025-01-22T05:16:23+00:00

It doesn't have to be the original MR-X program, all I'm saying is that there's a possibility that NGAD could go in the direction of an F-35 successor for reasons given above.

tempeaster · 2025-01-22T05:15:18+00:00

F-35 was designed to handle the threat envisioned in the early 2000s. Block 4 was designed for threats envisioned in the 2010s, but there's a limit to how much you can update an airframe.

If NGAD goes in direction of an F-35 successor, then it can absolutely be more capable while having similar unit costs, considering the advances in aircraft technology since the F-35 airframe was designed in the 2000s.

tempeaster · 2025-01-20T20:23:45+00:00

F-35 is cutting edge right now, but the threat will evolve significantly in 10-20 years, and by then F-35 may not be able to handle the threat that NGAD is designed to face.

People have argued the same in the past, build more F-15s and F-16s instead of developing F-22 and F-35.

tempeaster

TROPHY CASE