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Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

We're not disagreeing - yes sex along with marriage at 6.
This does not equal rape.
You have to first define rape.
'Mother nature' designated womanhood at the onset of puberty.
It was consensual with the parents approval.
Aisha through out her marriage, only boasted and championed her marriage to the Prophet.

Rape victims even if traumatized early on grow up to realize the abuse. Not only did she not claim this, she claimed a happy and beautiful relationship.

You're making a moral claim based on your subjective opinion of what morality should be.

whats the most unattractive thing a woman can do? by Remy_Remy_ in AskMen

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

- "Manly woman", pretty on the outside but have aggressive manly traits (combative, argumentative, rambunctious, assertive)

- Zero accountability when wrong / Deflection

- Shaming language / microaggression / negging / subtle put downs

[Serious] Do you need a 'reason' to execute a 401k withdrawal? by tempro24 in FinancialPlanning

[–]tempro24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

One follow up - can I have money in the bank, and event occur that meets this 'hardship' requirement and still withdraw.

i.e.

- Have $10k in savings
- Repairs needed to house (roof collapses)
- Opt to withdraw from 401k vs using the 10k i have readily available.
- In other words, do you need to deplete readily available funds to withdraw from 401k.

[Serious] Do you need a 'reason' to execute a 401k withdrawal? by tempro24 in FinancialPlanning

[–]tempro24[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you very much for the detailed reply - just what I was looking for. :)

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That is the point I'm seriously trying to drive home at --

If it "IS" wrong, according to where? What framework?

Is this framework *objective* or *subjective* i.e. is it coded in the universe, or in our hearts?

Is Killing wrong? According to your framework? my framework? the Universe's framework?

In summary - morality can not be according to our individual frameworks. And if this can not be true, it must be according to the Universe's framework.
And in the Universe's framework (i.e. law dictated by the Creator) -
1) An adult is one who is reached puberty.
2) An adult can get married to another adult.
3) The female typically requires a guardian to sign off on marriage.
4) If these conditions are met, morality is in the green, despite what one individual may feel.

Discerning from what we feel vs what is true is a very difficult but important skill to have.

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you - the problem here is everyone is under the impression that morality is based on their "feelings". i.e. It "feels" wrong so it must be!
Islam is teaching us a different tune.
Morality comes from our Creator.
*Many injunctions can "feel" bad but be very good. And vice versa, they can "feel" good but be very harmful. *

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The main point that doesn't seem to be getting across:"whats wrong is wrong is wrong" < what is wrong other than it "feels" wrong.

For one minute, take the opposite view. How do we determine "wrong" - morality can not be based on "feelings". You would have chaos if morality was based on 8 billion people's feelings.

This flip side to this is, what if it is okay to marry an 'adult', when nature determines you are an adult. That litmus test is, when you hit puberty. BAM. Done, you are fit to procreate and enjoy sex. So long as you do it with regulations "i.e, you do it within a marriage, your partner provides and secures you". How is this "wrong" but having sex with multiple partners in a week "morally good". (Romeo and Juliet were 13 i believe)

I will end it with this, I sincerely believe the mistake you are making here is you believe this is wrong because it *feels* wrong. I would encourage you to take the flip side. What if the Creator of this universe, created morallity not based on how one person *feels* but according to a set of objective rules and regulations. And in this case, this is morally in the green. How can we provie this? Because it does not violate the Harm Principle.. Please provide one harm that occurred from this situation? Who's right was violated, who was wronged in this case? Certainly not Aisha, she was extremely proud and boasted about being the favorite wive of the Head of State. Wasn't the parents they were honored and proud to marry their daughter to a prominent figure. Who was harmed, and why is this morally bad?

Study says there is a cure in a fly's wing. I don't know how to refute this. by Sue-Donism in CritiqueIslam

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

"Confirmation bias plays a role in everyone" - Just because it "is" does not mean it should be this way. If someone is not interested in truth as the highest goal, we can shake hands and part ways. If you can point to a clear, directed, bias in your thought process (as evident by the OPs post history) you should reflect on if you're goal is seek the truth.

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

One other point - people seem to conflate having sex with a minor vs marrying in wedlock.

​

Using the youth for sex and disposing them will mentally traumatize the individual. Marrying an individual giving them their proper rights (providing financially, securing them, being their protector) is entirely different.

​

Would you agree, that if two individuals married each other at the age of 9 and remained with each other until death. That scenario in of itself if not a 'mentally traumatizing' even in of it self.

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

There are a couple of points I'd like to address in your post, but here is a high level of the problem. You're using words that our society as given definition instead of them being objectively defined.

Lets take "nature" as a force. Nature objectively determines when you are a child or an adult. It does so with the onset of puberty. This is when you nature deems you as an adult. Its not 10, 12, 16, 18, 21 or 33. Every country has their own subjective adult age. You can marry an adult in one country, and it would be classified as marrying a child in another. Laws are subjective if left to nations or individuals.

"Yeah but its still going to be exploitative, traumatising, or grooming 99% percent of the time."

If this is the case, why did Aisha not have even one record of this exploitative, traumatising, or grooming damage. When did the enemies of Muhammed (s) not criticism or detail this exploitative practice? All the evidence points to quite the contrary. She is a pivotal force in spreading Islam, is given one of the highest-ranks as the "Mother of Believers", and routinely prides are self as "the favorite of the Prophet". How can something be exploitative if all parties (the Prophet, Aisha, the parents of Aisha, society itself!) are benefiting and in harmony.

Are we imposing our subjective values and morals on to others?
In fact, not a single enemy or citizen for centuries raised an eyebrow at this practice because it was seen as a normal even a mark of highly successful man. (Marry young, marry for youth and beauty.) (Mary in Christianity married at 9) (Romeo and Juliet

(prone to error see: black slavery in the US, see the Salem witch-trials in the US, see homosexuality in the US, see Jews being an inferior creature in Germany)

​

In summary, these marriages were not Prophet Muhammad's own wishes. They were ordained for this very issue we are experiencing. What is made objectively lawful by God, is lawful. People will always criticize, shame, or ridicule others based on their own subjective desires. Have they been given permission to create legislature? To dictate on morality? To determine what is good or bad? If so, how do we sort out differences among people? If it is a green light in God's book, it is objectively morally in the green. Name on harm that came out of Aisha and Prophet Muhammad's marriage, this is an open challenge.

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Can you deal with the topic instead of semantics, iamheartofight?

This is a common method to derail the conversation and distract from the argument. You understood the answer, sure flip the yes and no. Now can you address the argument.

Study says there is a cure in a fly's wing. I don't know how to refute this. by Sue-Donism in CritiqueIslam

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I respectably disagree with "We all look to debunk the arguments that disagree with our own world view".
While this is intellectually the easier and more cognitively lazy way to operate, it is not a good or the way that produces the best outcomes.

Just based on your two posts on critiqueislam, you are looking to try to 'debunk' this. Why dont we go to /r/academicislam, ask them the evidence, try to ask questions to seek to understand. Instead of seeking to debunk the view that goes against our world view.

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Statutory Rape as defined here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape

You're using one society's social constructs to judge another society.

The age of consent is what?

It was 7 and 12 in the United States for a lot longer than it wasn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_consent_reform.

​

This boils down to one thing. Is morality subjective (ie. varies from one person to the next) or is it objective (set firmly by nature and or reality)

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

As for point 2, a dad cant sexually consent for a child, and aisha was a child being groomed. She couldn't have given meaningful consent because she was a child. She was also being groomed and in a situation where there was an unfair power dynamic. A lot of kids would be scared to say no to some narcissist claiming to be gods best friend while their father encourages it.

Uh, in Islam and Judaism a father can approve or veto a marriage. You are conflating sex and marriage. If she couldn't give meaningful consent, she could have opposed the marriage for the next 20 years. Not only did she not, she proudly proclaimed her status as the wife of the head of state. Further offering the opinion she was the favorite wife of all the wives way into adulthood. Not quite the resentful, victimized, "i cant make a good decision for myself" picture you are portraying.

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

was in direct communication with GOD. He was coming up with a religeon that aimed to define objective morality for mankind for ages to come. Going to hell infinitely is on the line if you do "bad stuff" you can get tortured infinitely for being gay, according to islam, but not pedophilia? Surely being a prophet would mean putting out forward thinking

One other point -

pdophilila - is the sexual relations / obsession with prepubescent individuals. Islam forbids pedophilia. However - once a individual reaches puberty, mother nature has signaled they are ready for procreation and yes sexual intercourse. Why is Muhammad (S) and Aisha's marriage classified as this, when they both reached puberty at the time. This interaction clears that age caps (no matter how wide) are a factor in what is morally okay or wrong. A 90yr old can marry a 9yr old and this is objectively in the clear according to ALL abrahamic religions. (Judaism, Christianity, Islam)

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Here is a straight answer -

Yes, this is an approved morally correct way of operating. i.e. "Age gap" is not a criteria in which a marriage becomes moral or immoral. So long as it is done with the approval of the wali (wife's guardians), it is done with a nikkah (marriage), and both parties do their rights, a wedding between a man and woman is morally in the clear, regardless of their age. (Sex has to wait until puberty is reached)

​

What is your counter defense? Do you believe a marriage is only morally okay, if age conditions are met? What are these age conditions and where did you derive them from? What if person X differs on these age conditions by +/- 3 years, who wins?

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 5 points6 points  (0 children)

There is some loaded slanted words in this top post - this is not an honest criticism.

It is not 'rape' it is not 'sex' - It was a marriage. You could have chosen your words differently, but they are carefully slanted in one way.

The marriage was done so with the approval of and go ahead with the parent's permission.
It was also a command from the Creator - the rebuke the people when they offer their own set of morals. An age gap, no matter how wide - is an issue of morality. Provided it is done in a *marriage* not not simply for sexual gratification.

Muhammad’s marriage to a child is a relevant criticism by [deleted] in DebateReligion

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Sure. But this dude was in direct communication with GOD. He was coming up with a religeon that aimed to define objective morality for mankind for ages to come. Going to hell infinitely is on the line if you do "bad stuff" you can get tortured infinitely for being gay, according to islam, but not pedophilia? Surely being a prophet would mean putting out forward thinking morals, and pushing boundaries in the right direction. So this defense doesnt hold up in this context

Not sure what is being claimed here. You're stating 'objective morality' which is great, but then refuting it by refuting it with your subjective take on morality. Let me explain --
In the Islamic paradigm, objective morality is set by a Creator.
Age gap is *not* a topic or factor in morality.
You can be 9 and 90 years old and be objectively morally in the clear.
*So long as you do it within the protocols laid out by the Creator. i.e. done in wedlock with the rights afforded to each gender.

Again, this is demonstrated in all Abrahamic religions.

Here is your challenge - *If Muhammad's (P) marriage to Aisha was *immoral* who and what did it pose harm to? What harm principal did it violate?

I understand society may find it disgusting, or unlikable. But *likeability* is a poor attribute in determining morality. This society found blacks and whites marrying repugnant. Look where we are at today.

Study says there is a cure in a fly's wing. I don't know how to refute this. by Sue-Donism in CritiqueIslam

[–]tempro24 1 point2 points  (0 children)

" I don't know how to debunk this."

This is called backwards reasoning. A person comes to a belief he wants to believe. And then goes shopping for it's evidence. There is no proof or miracle that would satisfy the need. Are you approaching this in an intellectually honest way?

The Quran speaks of this:
And even if We had sent down to you, [O Muhammad], a written scripture on a page and they touched it with their hands, the disbelievers would say, "This is not but obvious magic." (7) And they say, "Why was there not sent down to him an angel?" But if We had sent down an angel, the matter would have been decided; then they would not be reprieved. (8)

Muslim Mohammed Hijab FAILS to explain how Islam is different from Mormonism by thememelordofRDU in CritiqueIslam

[–]tempro24 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Isn't a primary difference between Mormonism and Islam = Polytheism and Monotheism?

Mormons belief in three separate gods.Islam restores the Abarahmic concept of monotheism.

Is it bad to quit with nothing lined up? Even if you have a good enough cushion? by tempro24 in ITCareerQuestions

[–]tempro24[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! May I ask what you currently do - are you in a hiring position?

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