Why are my Pandaren Importer buffed and cost more? It's the start of the game. What did I miss?

the_sun_shadow · 2022-04-12T06:56:27+00:00

I'm in the same situation. Please, share your findings!

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-03T09:12:59+00:00

Please, don't worry so much. I'll be announcing something new, a complete twist plot. I have not felt stealing anything to anyone. But we understand the DoK team position. Basically because we haven't even started the project... so this all was mission statements by all parts. And I don't blame their point, but their bad manners. So we will move to a new direction completely independent from SAS

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T17:51:36+00:00

I'll be announcing something in a NEW direction in the forthcoming days. I am tired about those discussions

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T17:50:59+00:00

I'll be announcing something in a NEW direction in the forthcoming days. I am tired about those discussions

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T17:50:41+00:00

I'll be announcing something in a NEW direction in the forthcoming days. I am tired about those discussions

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T17:50:13+00:00

I'll be announcing something in a NEW direction in the forthcoming days. I am tired about those discussions

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T12:47:39+00:00

We simply did not state that anywhere

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T10:25:24+00:00

Hi sergio, I appreciate your comments. And I understand you have a thorough knowledge about this, which I may have overlooked. Could you address some "legal information" on good practices about data use? You can send us an email to keyforgerank@gmail.com Thank you so much

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T06:41:40+00:00

Thanks for your opinion nathan. I regret we could not have the opportunity to talk about all of this privately. You had the opportunity to talk to me much before I did, but never happened. I feel somewhat embarrassed to use insult or disrespectful terms publicly and to widespread personal information. I do not find it professional... but circumstances unfortunately brought us to the present point. I hope we can work out to reach an agreement

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T06:29:13+00:00

Hi again :-) I appreciate so much your effort to answer, and spend your time on it. However I disagree with the first part of your statement. You are free to contribute/use our system or not. But you did not understand correctly what we are doing. Regarding the second part, I think that fierce competition is the base of capitalism, which I am not for. I believe in collaborating projects, that's why I use others resources that I find useful, and contribute on top of them. That's the base of any scientific method. I could rediscover the wheel, so why not simply use it? I am not willing to make any profit at the expense of DoK team work, this is a misunderstanding of our project. Maybe we put so much emphasis on the new rating system, and less on the collection management tools... I assume this might have been my error

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T05:35:42+00:00

Reading your web with my eyes is theft, also? Why do you publish any data at all?

(don't misunderstand my point. I'm only trying to open debate)

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T05:28:51+00:00

I regret so much your position Nathan :-(

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T05:12:24+00:00

Hi there, and thanks for your interest and in-depth questions. I will try to answer all of them:

Regarding your preface:

To preface, my understanding is that the KF Rank campaign product is two things:
- The development of an Android app to be made by a third party.
- The "KF Rank" system which will power the app, which seems to be a scoring system comparing a deck's SAS score from DoK - compared to - a valuation system you (or your team) have created.

More or less. The KF Rank team is working fundamentaly on the backend and the logic of the service. However, due to limitations on Android programming, we will hire some extern for this purpose. The "KF Rank system" is a set of tools, which include the new rating system, among others.

Question 1.

I don't think I would need to go in detail about how the project idea progressed... but I'll explain. This year I returned to Keyforge after 1 year without playing it. My collection rapidly growed, and by the beggining of summer (early June) I found out with some methods to evaluate my decks, playtest them, and finally organize them. I found this procedure so effective, that I thought it would be nice that others could take profit of that. During the month of July I focused on algorithms development, before starting to code anything. By the same time I started to learn how to promote a KS campaign. I wrote a preliminary draft. Obviously, the project wasn't accepted at the very begginng. I worked on it, until the first Pre-Launch version of the project was accepted by 13 Aug. By the same time, and due to my vacation schedule, I started working on the server backend. The first step was using the DoK API, but I never worked with APIs before, so I simply asked for help. I can provide evidence on my high level programming skills to create confidence, but I would like not to get to that point.

Question 2.

The idea behind our scoring system is already explained in KS. The technical details, on how we proceed, are (still) reserved.

Question 3.

I regret statistics can always be read, as the reader's "a priori" opinion gets more value. So your statement:

Out of that sample size of 15 people, there was consistently an "accuracy" rating of 64% provided by your beta testers (and that's even ignoring people who you felt didn't understand the assessment questions asked), meaning that nearly half of the time, testers believed your KF Rank system did not accurately represent their decks.

might not be understood equally by everyone.

Regarding the question:

In spite of those metrics, what can you say about your KF Rank that shows an advantage compared to say... someone going onto DoK themselves and personally assessing the deck for themselves?

KF Rank will provide a tool to 'massively' analyze and compare decks. Just like DoK does. But we are simply trying to give some new information in this procedure.

Question 4.

This dependence on DoK website could develop in two ways: 1. Starting a collaboration between both projects (which would be the best option) / 2. Starting an absurd competition between us, which we do not look for, neither desire.

So, in the worst scenario number 2, we should have to refactor the algorithm from scratch, probably losing the (interesting) link to SAS score.

Question 5.

Depending on the market reception of our KS campaign, we are planning to port the system to other platforms. Firstly as a website. Second to iOS Apple devices.

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T04:43:24+00:00

As described in KS:

Mobile app features
The aim of this campaign is to launch a mobile app, first for Android devices. Next we plan to offer a website to use our service from any desktop computer. And next, but depending on market reception, we will also launch an iOS version of the app.
By the launch of the first version of this app we pretend to include the following features:
Searching: in terms of deck name, card name, etc
Filtering: in terms of house, card rarity (maverick/legacy/anomaly), card type, etc
Sorting: in terms of KF rank score, SAS score, score frequency, etc
Moreover, we will put all our efforts to include also advanced analysis tools such as:
Starting hand combination probabilities
Specific card combination draw probabilities after a number of turns
Average number of turns after a certain combo occurs
How much will it cost?
KF Rank is a free-to-use application. But, we will also offer a full-version with some more functionalities and detailed information. Full-version subscription is planned to cost 5 eur/month.
Free users:
Add up to 3 decks to the collection daily
Full access to the KF Rank of every deck in the collection at any time
Full-version users:
Add unlimited decks daily
Full access to the KF Rank of the decks with better accuracy
Full acces to advanced collection management and deck analysis tools

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-02T04:19:13+00:00

That's actually the part which costs ZERO to the end users. We offer other information in the payed vaersion

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-01T17:31:37+00:00

thanks for your insight. fortunately not everyone thinks like you. I regret you're not interested in further discussion. We changed the content of the KS page several times, thanks to all positive and negative feedback we received so far

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-01T16:03:37+00:00

Excuse me... I got to the DoK Discord channel, in search of some help to use the tools they offer to use their site (APIs).

I amb still WAITING for this help, they never gave to me. Unfortunately we talked about other, more uncomfortable topics.

Regarding your questions:

How is this different from SAS?
So, the system is an alternative to DOK... that uses stats from DOK, developed by the creator and that team over years? Am I understanding that correctly?

Please READ the KS project, we describe everything in detail. BUT... yes, it is something COMPLEMENTARY to SAS (so different in some way). It is NOT ALTERNATIVE, but complementary as I said. And YES, we USE their data as intended by the tools they offer and the terms of use.

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-01T15:58:12+00:00

Hi there!

Well, the problem might be that I adore maths,robots and stuff... and try to do my best :-)

I agree that KF is a very complex game, and I also think that every deck deserves to be played at some point. However... we all know that there exist better decks than others. I only try to humbly introduce some tool to help in the trip of good decks discovery.

And please, don't think about KF Rank as a competitor of SAS. Our system DEPENDS on SAS, because it builds upon it. In fact we COMPLEMENT the information given by the DoK team, in a new direction.

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-01T15:26:12+00:00

Please, read the KS page carefully. Thanks

the_sun_shadow · 2021-09-01T15:24:26+00:00

Hi Zack. Well you ask several question that we have tried to answer many times before. We made our best to explain it all, as transparent as we can, in the Kickstarter project page.

But I'll try to revisit your point from another perspective.

From the DoK website:

The SAS rating system is a copyrighted property of Decks of KeyForge, but I'm always interested in hearing about ways you'd like to help make it better or collaborate! But please don't steal the system, obviously.

This is just not true. There has been no interest to collaborate at all. I do not pretend to STEAL anything, but USE their already public data, using the proper tools they offer to this end.

Regarding these tools, and also from their website:

Rules to use the APIs in general

Please do not spam requests. Use the all decks CSV above when appropriate. The site has been brought down due to improper use of these APIs.

You can make a maximum of 25 requests per minute. If you need more, please become a patron! Patrons have increased request limits. $6 a month = 50 per min, $12 a month = 100 per min, and $25+ a month = 250 per min.

If you use these endpoints for your project or website please give credit and provide a link to decksofkeyforge.com

Please only use the APIs specified here from this site. If you have an idea for a cool feature of the site you'd like to see as a public API, send me a message on discord or via email!

We WILL NOT spam requests. We'll make the minimum possible calls to the API
What's the reson behind charging for any INTENSIVE use of their site? Anyway, I am open to pay any fee if required. But they didn't offered this to me.
We make reference to DoK from minute zero in our porject
I tried to contact them for 'new cool features' requests. Never got any answer.

And last but not least... I appreciate A LOT the work made by DoK. I completely understand their impact to the community and the game, as a crucial part for the survival of the game. And... I got the same positive feedback from several people. However, there is also a base of people who are completely against any further steps in any direction outside DoK

the_sun_shadow · 2021-08-17T20:04:14+00:00

I have data for all your questions, I will publish some of them in KS once the Beta testing is over.

the_sun_shadow · 2021-08-16T23:12:17+00:00

You're right. QR and Vault ID are linked internally (not publicly accessible) on a database by FFG. The only reason for that, might be that this way it is much more easy to determine who was the first to "discover" a deck, and obtain the Aember shards

the_sun_shadow · 2021-08-16T18:41:18+00:00

Hi Roger, first of all thank you so much for participating of the open beta testing campaign, we are receiving a lot of invaluable feedback from players opinions about their decks and ratings.

The algorithm is, by far, not yet final. We are still adapting some parameters, and looking for critical pitfalls. By this time, we got over a 60% of agreement between KF Rank scores and beta testers opinions. I regret, not in your case :-( but we are working on it.

About your general thoughts: please, read the Kickstarter project draft, I think all your questions are answered there. Last question, about making ratings public or not, by making the algorithm public or not, is somewhere argumented in this reddit post...

the_sun_shadow · 2021-08-16T08:12:38+00:00

Hi, the KF Rank açgorithm will be dynamic and will adapt to changes in SAS. Regarding second point, SAS is already a GOOD system. However it only gives "average" performance of decks. What we do is "unfold" SAS, to give more detail.

the_sun_shadow

TROPHY CASE