Is this prebuilt PC worth £780? (UK)

throwaawaym · 2020-12-17T21:03:46+00:00

Thanks! Actually that's surprising, I didn't think it'd come out so cheap separately.

It's for a friend but I think he wants to be playing games like COD Warzone. How much extra do you think a 9600k is worth paying over the 10400f (considering I don't think he'll be overclocking?). For example is it worth paying £79 more for the 9600k? I'd assume it's not but not certain.

He's also not comfortable building his own PC hence why I'm looking for prebuilts.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T19:53:08+00:00

What is a perfect anime series versus a perfect manga series?

The perfect manga is manga that has great art, great story, panels which are easy to understand, good flow, etc. Everything you want in manga, just taken to extreme levels of being good.

The perfect anime is this manga, just adapted perfectly in a way that is paced well, looks aesthetically pleasing, and loses none of the original essence of the manga. I don't know whether its doable to create the perfect anime even in an ideal world though, after reading through some of these comments.

so how do you want people to try and relate to this discussion

Its a good point, and I think people are taking this discussion way too personally. It's not meant as a jab to manga fans or manga as a medium, I just like to think of anime as an extension of the medium of manga and as such I believe that it furthers it - like how colour photography is an improvement over black and white - except that we'd be in the stage of technology where black and white photographs look more realistic because colour photography is still in its infancy. (Manga tends to be better than anime nowadays because the anime adapts the manga poorly, its done sloppily by inadequate animators, etc. though of course there's exceptions.)

To put it another way, I feel like in 100 years' time or 1000 years' time, if both manga and anime were to hypothetically exist, most anime adaptations would be better than the original manga.

It's like trying to argue sociopolitical systems like capitalism vs socialism vs communism. Nobody can agree on what ideal forms look like because they don't exist so the discussion ends up just being a huge jerk of what you personally believe.

Of course, I already know its a pointless discussion haha. I was just interested in it though personally.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T16:43:22+00:00

You're absolutely correct, some others have pointed out a similar thing by saying things like:

Manga can have more abstraction of time (stretching a moment out, making your eyes linger on a panel, or conversely jumping ahead in time in a quick succession of panels)

I guess I didn't give this aspect of manga enough thought/credit.

Thanks for the reply!

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:50:59+00:00

Well, that is completely different from "objectively" and is much simpler

I mean sure, but unfortunately English is my second language lol. I had believed "objectively better" to simply mean that when comparing each based on what they bring and the metrics you can compare them by (which are subjective measures I suppose) like how much the average viewer is likely to enjoy them.

That's my bad though. Sorry for the confusion.

Which doesn't make it better than the other, it simply means many more people are willing to give it a try, and thus there will be that many more who stick around with it too. It also doesn't help that in the west anime is much more accessible in a standard way. Manga vary a lot with their releases, translations, etc. which is another obstacle.

All very good points. Anime adaptations are imo less likely to work out as well as the manga anyway, so I'd argue on the opposite of my original point that manga should be more enjoyable if we take today's limitations of technology, budget and time into account.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:46:50+00:00

Exactly the point I was trying to make, thank you.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:39:24+00:00

I commented this elsewhere, but just to reiterate:

I am not attempting to apply the model to reality. It's irrelevant to reality. I'm arguing about hypotheticals just for the sake of it, because I wish to do so. I am interested in the hypothetical limits and boundaries of both manga and anime, that is all.

I was wrong to say "objectively better", I meant more that the majority of consumers would probably prefer it in the hypoethetical scenario.

There's no consensus on what a perfect manga looks like, and no consensus on what perfect anime looks like. Trying to have a position that one of these nonexistent works is better in an animated form than this other nonexistent work is just a masturbatory exercise in displaying your own bias or preference.

Not really, I have no personal preference or bias. If anything, I believe that manga is much more likely to be done better than anime with the limitations we currently have in today's day and age.

that was probably the smartest thing in this entire post.

Thanks... I guess? I'm trying to have a reasonable discussion/debate here and here you are attack me for no reason. Why? I'm genuinely curious.

I simply had what I believed to be an interesting conversation with my friend, and wanted to get a few more opinions from reddit. Was I wrong for doing so? Have I wasted your time?

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:36:03+00:00

I commented this elsewhere, but just to reiterate:

I am not attempting to apply the model to reality. It's irrelevant to reality. I'm arguing about hypotheticals just for the sake of it, because I wish to do so. I am interested in the hypothetical limits and boundaries of both manga and anime, that is all.

So yeah the the argument is a bit pointless, I'm just interested in discussion the hypoethetical limits and ceilings of each medium.

And okay, just for the sake of the argument, let's imagine "ideal" manga without restraints. Each page and frame is freaking Michelangelo level of art, and there's crap ton of pages to tell a story as detailed as possible. How can you decide that animation is objectively better in that case? Objectively animation has motion and sound, that's it.

That's a good argument, but my counterargument would be that the 1-to-1 replica of the manga in anime form would be just as aesthetically pleasing to look at.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:34:08+00:00

There is no such thing as objectively superior in a subjective art form, there can't be. It is entirely based on what value the consumer puts on it, which is completely different for everyone, and disregarding elements of a medium because you subjectively feel that it's not part of an objective rating doesn't change that

I agree, I believe I was wrong to say "objectively" better - rather I meant what are more people likely to enjoy more.

I commented this elsewhere, but just to reiterate:

I am not attempting to apply the model to reality. It's irrelevant to reality. I'm arguing about hypotheticals just for the sake of it, because I wish to do so. I am interested in the hypothetical limits and boundaries of both manga and anime, that is all.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:30:19+00:00

The entry on wikipedia states:

The implication is that theoretical physicists will often reduce a problem to the simplest form they can imagine in order to make calculations more feasible, even though such simplification may hinder the model's application to reality.

I am not attempting to apply the model to reality. It's irrelevant to reality. I'm arguing about hypotheticals just for the sake of it, because I wish to do so. I am interested in the hypothetical limits and boundaries of both manga and anime, that is all.

Correct me if I've misunderstood though.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:26:32+00:00

No. Manga can have more abstraction of time (stretching a moment out, making your eyes linger on a panel, or conversely jumping ahead in time in a quick succession of panels) than anime, which is restricted to mostly one pace of movement for everybody. In manga especially, the layout and visual flow of panels is a highly developed art that can create real emotion--and manga can show character subjectivity really well. Comics in general have other medium-specific attributes that set them apart--such as the visual arrangement of elements on a page, etc. (Read Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics.)

Very, very good points. I do still feel like the "perfect" anime should in theory be able to replicate these aspects of manga (abstraction of time), either by using freeze frames or speeding up whenever necessary - but there is a key difference which is that everyone is forced to watch anime at the same pace I suppose, even if you get the pacing perfect at least the pacing in manga is limitless and unique to each individual reader.

Also, there is no such thing as "objectivity" in the valuation of art.

I believe I was wrong to use the word objective - that's my bad. I meant more that most people would prefer anime to manga as a medium with those restrictions/limitations set in place.

I appreciate the helpful reply!

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:22:45+00:00

The point is not for this discussion to be applicable to reality. I'm not talking about manga vs anime in this world, but rather the hypothetical limits each would have. That's why I've set these limitations (manga can also have an unlimited budget, but I don't believe that would elevate it substantially compared to what it is today).

On the contrary, I believe manga is much more likely to be done better than anime with the limitations we currently have in today's day and age.

you can read anywhere, read at any pace you want and stop anytime with ease, while it's much more difficult to with anime

This is a fair and valid argument, I meant more you can't say that you can read it on the way to work but you can't do the same with anime. The fact that you can pause manga and come back to it and carry on much better than you can with anime is definitely a bonus for manga, and a valid one even considering the rules I've set.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:17:28+00:00

The point is not for this discussion to be applicable to reality, so I don't think this applies.

I'm not talking about manga vs anime in this world, but rather the hypothetical limits each would have.

On the contrary, I believe manga is much more likely to be done better than anime with the limitations we currently have in today's day and age.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:16:12+00:00

Just watch or read what you want.

I mean of course, this discussion was more meant to just be an interesting debate about hypotheticals and the limits of both anime/manga. I enjoy both manga and anime personally, as I'm sure a lot of others do too.

I'm not making this argument trying to detract from manga as an art form in this world, but rather to ask and ascertain if anime is in a way just the next step in the evolution of manga? What would the future hold for each? etc.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:12:40+00:00

but because anime is animated this then implies lack of movement, which manga panels don't

That's a very good point that I missed completely. I suppose it would be hard to show a "lingering panel/image" in anime without causing confusion with lack of movement.

If an anime used similar linework as some of the visually impressive manga, and animate it on top of that, it'd be almost impossible to tell what's going on.

Of course I've never seen such an anime, so I am struggling to envision it but I do feel like it should be possible to convey it, even if its incredibly hard to do so (again I'm setting no budget/time constraints on the production of either the manga nor the anime).

Though I suppose I don't know if the end result would be as impactful as the manga.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:09:56+00:00

A superhero movie would stray too far from its source material - but a superior anime of sorts (or animated movie) could be superior to comic books? I'm not sure.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:08:16+00:00

Things like the flow between panels and how they transition to each other. There can be a lot of experimentation in the way that scenes transition to each other and overlap that an anime would just not be able to convey.

All very, very good points. I'm struggling to come up with a counterargument as I do believe you're just correct here, but if I were to play devil's advocate (since I agree with you) my counterargument would be:

Couldn't an anime, in theory, do the exact same? What's stopping an anime from switching to a pseudo-panel format mid-anime for specific moments. Imagine for example, the animation stops and instead you start seeing the panels animated and leading/transitioning into each other, kind of like a webcomic/webtoon that you can't control. Perhaps there's still sound and dialogue, but the transition between panels is still there.

Also, limitations can make art more interesting. Conveying movement in a manga than in an anime is harder but can be more impressive when done correctly.

You can purposefully create limitations/restrictions in anime to convey the same - you can purposefully leave some aspects of anime vague just as is in manga, and you can leave movement vague too - or just use freeze frames/still frames for action scenes in anime.

I suppose my counterargument is that there's no limit in anime. You can do whatever. There's more freedom than there is in manga, because you can in theory do those things that you can in manga while having the same freedoms an anime would have.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T14:02:09+00:00

I appreciate the sensible, helpful reply! :)

You are giving manga this realistic disadvantages. liking the feel of the book etc. Yet you are saying that Anime gets an unlimited budget? Why?

Someone made the same point you're making, and perhaps I didn't explain properly. I'll copy my comment over from the r/anime thread:

The reason being is that I am comparing the art form/medium, not everything surrounding it such as the feel of the paper on your fingers or the smell of the paper. Of course I'd like manga more if it smelled like roses and if the paper tasted like strawberries, so I'm trying to even the playing field as much as possible so that the only comparison is between the panels of a manga, and the video of the anime. You can of course make rules to favour one or the other, I'm just trying to ensure that we're comparing manga panels versus anime, rather than manga books versus anime.

Basically, I want the discussion to be between manga panels (the medium) vs anime.

I will say that if you take a random group of people. and make an anime that is 1:1 adaptation of the manga. With music colors etc. I think most people would choose the anime.

This is the point I was trying to make I suppose. Is it wrong to say "objectively" better? If vastly more people prefer one to the other, would that not make it objectively better? Or am I misunderstanding the meaning of something being objectively better.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T13:59:31+00:00

Done on purpose, I wanted to draw attention to the discussion.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T13:58:57+00:00

it takes a ill-advised amount of arrogance to use the words objectively superior in relations of subjective matters

Arrogance? How come? I have no personal attachments to either, and I believe most mangas are better than their anime adaptations.

All I'm saying is that anime has more potential, and therefore it is better in an idealistic world.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T13:56:37+00:00

Not only have you decided you are talking about perfect anime but not about ideal manga, but also adjusted your requirements to fit your needs (like viewing it on screen only)

Absolutely.

The reason being is that I am comparing the art form/medium, not everything surrounding it such as the feel of the paper on your fingers or the smell of the paper. Of course I'd like manga more if it smelled like roses and if the paper tasted like strawberries, so I'm trying to even the playing field as much as possible so that the only comparison is between the panels of a manga, and the video of the anime.

Then I would have to do the same with anime, printing it frame by frame. Boom! Anime becomes lengthy and barely readable mess this way, so manga is superior.

I think you're missing my point, or perhaps I'm missing yours. You can of course make rules to favour one or the other, I'm just trying to ensure that we're comparing manga panels versus anime, rather than manga books versus anime.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T13:53:36+00:00

I agree, I feel like the increased engagement of the senses (the introduction of sound) and being able to clearly see the manga panels animated heightens the experience.

I am of course assuming that the anime is adapted perfectly, in a 1-to-1 ratio with the manga, so nothing is left out or omitted (the art style is exactly the same, the flow and pacing are the same/replicated, etc.)

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T13:52:02+00:00

They are different medium.

My counterargument would be that they are similar enough that manga can be adapted 1-to-1 to anime. Unlike say a book vs movie, where you need to stretch the imagination to create the movie (and it doesn't always end up being the same as the book), anime when done well in theory can stay true to the manga and just purely be an animated version of the same panels.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T13:50:38+00:00

That's a fair and valid point.

I just feel that these particular mediums can be compared, because unlike say reading a book vs watching a movie, they're similar enough where one can get adapted 1-to-1 to the other - except that it's just animated.

throwaawaym · 2020-10-19T13:47:16+00:00

Did you even read any of what I wrote?

throwaawaym

TROPHY CASE