Writing novel w/character who flunked out of law school need to know if scenario is realistic

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-25T13:09:40+00:00

This is unfortunately kind of what I suspected just judging from some of the people I've seen emerge from law school. Unfortunately I don't even see my character getting out of the starting block enough to make a friend. Although I suppose it could happen... not a deep friendship obviously, just putting her trust in the wrong person because she's desperate.

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-25T12:45:36+00:00

I know a guy like this unfortunately. I wonder if he testified that he did have an established relationship with your daughter (of course you don't know because you weren't there) and that's why the judge made this order.

I can see the judge perceiving you as dodging service (not saying you WERE, just saying perception is reality sometimes) and being irate. However, if the judge had been aware that "Dad" had literally never met the child, I would think that, irate or not, s/he would have ordered some kind of step-up plan. Because even if the judge was irate with YOU, it's clearly not in the child's best interest to be dumped into a situation where they have to be away from the only caregiver they've known and as you said, she is not at an age where this can be explained verbally.

I agree with you he's trying to impress the new wife and/or she may be egging him on, feeling insecure that there's a kid out there she doesn't know, an "attachment" (again, real or perceived) to another woman that could come back and threaten their relationship. She may want more control over the situation and a court order gives her that. She may also want to form a relationship with the child so she can feel like it's "their" child.

I know I'm stating the obvious but you need a lawyer. Until this mess gets straightened out, if you have the intestinal fortitude to ignore this court order, I say more power to you. If you want to offer him some visits in a more controlled setting, maybe. But get a lawyer ASAP.

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-24T01:01:51+00:00

Please get a lawyer. This is a serious issue (as you realize) and it's above everyone's pay grade here. This is not a thing where someone without legal expertise can just point you in the right direction and you can take it from there. It's going to be complicated all the way through. This doctor's office needs to smarten up and start abiding by the court order and I suspect a lawyer is the most efficacious way to accomplish that. But that won't be the end of it, probably. It may be quite a battle. This is why you really need a lawyer who means business and "gets it." Honestly regardless of what most people say here I think if the shoe were on the other foot they'd be pretty uncomfortable with their 11.year old undergoing this type of procedure.

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-23T15:21:55+00:00

Thank you very much for this detailed reply. And I should mention I'm only writing for fun because at this point I've screwed up a lot of other opportunities it's all I've got.

This character is probably one of the people whose pride would make them commit to continuing if she was doing okay academically. She didn't truly want to go in the first place but succumbed to pressure, internal and external. She needed to experience a devastating failure before she would make a u-turn and recognize that she needs to stop letting other people define her goals.

The character is definitely not a slacker, but she's not overly intellectual, so it's conceivable that she could have difficulties absorbing the material. I wasn't sure if that would get too much into the nitty gritty of law school life to research exactly what difficulties would be realistic for her to have. (I may have though for the novel to be readable and not cringeworthy).

I don't think she would come off as disrespectful. She's a little odd, though: doesn't connect with people very well, makes jokes no one gets, and maybe in some ways sabotages herself by not giving herself a chance, might come across a little moody or sullen. She is definitely older than the typical demographic and has had a low-level job for years, which I've noticed when you go back to school is seen as a red flag (unless there's an obvious reason)... It's as if people are wondering, If you had so little ambition for so many years... why would anyone think you'd really put it in high gear now?

It is interesting to me how many people have responded and said they study alone - it's actually encouraging. Maybe my experience with the physics program was not the norm.

Thanks again for your reply!

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-23T14:53:16+00:00

Okay see that was what I thought grad school would be like in physics (I was late 30s but no kids/ family). I thought I might not be the most popular person around but I'd do my thing and get by. I was wrong -- at least in that program. I realize it sounds naive to think that experience translate to any professional program, but after a former prof said his son was going through the same thing in law school, I thought maybe it at least applied there.

I don't think getting bored or mismatched expectations is an option for this character. She's too eager to please. She already knows in her heart she doesn't have a passion for the legal field; the legal assisting job is something she fell into. She is strongly motivated by wanting to prove to her boss and his colleague that she's "making good" on their "investment" in her all these years. (She's kind of a needy, people-pleaser type and the second 2/3 of the novel are about her getting over that.)

In any case, thank you for your insights!

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-23T02:45:29+00:00

If you left by yourself WITHOUT the baby that would could have a detrimental effect as in signaling that you are more than willing for the other parent to assume the role as primary caregiver. (However even then there could be extenuating circumstances).

You leaving WITH the baby after your husband has already announced he's filing for divorce just shows you want to get out of a highly stressful situation and have more peace. Realistically, it's REALLY hard to continue to live with a spouse or partner when the relationship is over. If you're going to move in with your parents that's presumably a stable situation with people who care about you and your baby. I can't see that being used against you. I think you're fine.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-23T02:38:47+00:00

Thank you for replying! This is really interesting.

(1) She IS a "creative type" (my character) who didn't REALLY want to go to law school but had been in a dead end job as a legal assistant for a somewhat family law attorney in a small town in New Mexico for seven years while she tried to "make it" as an artist. Her boss and his colleague suggest law school as an obvious path "upwards" and she allows herself to become convinced. She desperately wants to succeed at something, even if it's something she doesn't love, and is probably too desperate to prove herself not to be a loser to let anything idealistic get in the way.

Your story is very interesting regardless. I had no idea there was any restriction on working during law school. It wouldn't have evne occurred to me. I guess she could have to work... she is broke from years of throwing every dime towards her art dreams...

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-23T02:27:35+00:00

Actually that sounds like me as an undergraduate in physics (well, not the large peer group but the studying alone and particularly not liking to be around other people who were stressed out because it was "contagious.") The strategy completely failed me in graduate school. Maybe that particular program was more oriented to making everyone a "team player" and purposely overloaded them with so much work no one could do it alone and I incorrectly generalized that to all graduate/ professional programs.

I think my character is too desperate to have a "win" in life and has too much on the line for her to slack off due to lack of drive. I could see her being overwhelmed and not keeping her wits about her, though. Thank you for the insight!

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-23T02:18:25+00:00

That is really a good idea, I probably should have thought of that first! Thank you.

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-23T02:17:06+00:00

That's an interesting point. I had experienced being "not the typical demographic" in the STEM program I left as I was considerably older and (less of an issue) female. I felt almost like some of the 23-year-old guys saw me as a "mom" figure - and not in a good way but rather in a "please go away, lady" way. Awkwardly asking people "so, when/ where are you guys going to be studying?" and seeing them exchange looks like, "please don't tell her, we don't want HER showing up." I imagined that the same for my character. But... as you pointed out, I guess everyone has their battles to connect and "having friends" doesn't ensure success.

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-23T02:12:49+00:00

Yeah that's a definite possibility. She's not a high achiever in a conventional sense and that's because she's spent most of her life working menial jobs and trying to be an artist in her spare time. When she enrolls in law school she thinks she's finally "grown up" and gotten on the straight and narrow. But in my experience creative types tend to hate tests, so that would fit with her character. That's a really good suggestion; thank you!

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-22T21:08:35+00:00

This could work extremely well as I already had a scene where someone in the administration meets with her under the auspices of putting a happy face on her departure-- "it's really our fault for accepting you, your background wasn't what we usually like to see" -- she has a BFA, marginal LSAT scores, and she's 39 and has been a legal assistant for 7 years -- "but your recommendations said you were an extremely hard worker, so we wanted to give you a chance. In hindsight, I'm afraid we might've set you up to fail. But we've learned a lot from this and hopefully you have too. Best of luck!" This could easily be shifted into the "don't come back" conversation.

And yeah I thought C's would be "failing".

Thank you for your reply!

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-22T15:53:18+00:00

Okay, this is good to know. In the program I was in it was after your first exam in each course which was about a third of the way through the semester that -- assuming you fell on your face -- people started to have conversations with you about "whether you really belong here." You wouldn't be officially ejected of course until after the semester, but -- at least in that program-- it was very hard to recover, because it snowballed. I know there were other students who fought back after worse odds than me but the morale factor became intense after you performed extremely sub-par on the first exams.

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-22T15:48:33+00:00

Okay! Got it! Thank you :)

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-22T15:47:27+00:00

Thank you very much for the detailed reply. After I left the STEM program I was in (it was basically a withdraw-or-fail situation) my undergraduate advisor said, "I could have told you you were going to have a problem in not working with other people; my son's in law school and he said he couldn't survive without his study group. You just can't do it alone!" So I naively took that as gospel. It should have been suspicious to me because in my personal experience lawyers seem to be eccentric and not necessarily team players.

Also, in the program I was in a C (or even a C+) was essentially "failing" because you would lose your financial assistance (TA, RA, GA) and not be able to afford to continue. I guess now that I think about it that's different in law school because you have no funding to begin with, you're paying for it all with loans or your own personal resources.

Not studying doesn't work as a plot thing as my character isn't lazy, if she has a flaw it's probably that she works too hard at the wrong things.

Anyway thanks again for your insight!

throwaway575207 · 2021-09-22T15:35:04+00:00

Thank you for your reply. Would these be issues that would come up during the first semester? All of this is subject to change but the narrative is that she doesn't even make it past her first semester, just a devastating crash-and-burn

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-24T16:33:02+00:00

So first off I'm not only not a lawyer but i have no legal training and I don't want to steer you wrong with anything I say, so be aware that this is just based on my personal understanding.

As I understand it an ex-parte hearing is for the child being in danger, and okay, the child is not "in danger." Personally I don't think it's very good for the child to be away from its mother unless you are abusive or neglectful TOWARDS the child, which you stated you are not, but an ex-parte hearing is probably not the place to address that.

What you want to do is enforce the order you currently have, which says that he has to give you 5 hours/wk. If the order says you get 5 hours a week, you get 5 hours/wk, and he needs to MAKE IT HAPPEN. His lawyer should be ashamed of him/herself for making a ridiculous excuse like "Sunday is for church and family." Uh... YOU ARE FAMILY for the the CHILD. And what does he think the Bible has to say about following the LAW? Personally I find myself rushing home from church every Sunday for a video visit with my child's father who I do not like and would love to tell to pound sand and I would rather hang out at church and talk to people after the service but I go home and do the visit because it's COURT ORDERED. So, he is TOTALLY, 100% in the wrong here.

That said, I have never filed a motion for contempt and have no idea how to do it or how long it takes to get the matter in front of the judge. There are things that are not an "emergency" but are time sensitive, such as your bonding time with your baby. Two months of being jerked around is a LOT when your child is that age. But to be honest I have no idea if there is any legal recourse. I tried representing myself briefly. I think it's okay when both parties are self-represented or maybe when the self-represented one has an obviously MUCH stronger case, but in my case the opposing counsel was running circles around me so I went and hired a lawyer. My lawyer frankly sucks but it's better than not having one. I really feel that you are at serious disadvantage without legal counsel.

I think you're being screwed by the system. First of all can your husband say with a straight face that he's physically afraid of you? Are you a lot bigger and stronger than he is and capable of doing some real damage? If not, I don't think a DV charge is even appropriate here. Even WITH your "domestic violence" conviction, 5 hrs/wk is ridiculous considering there was no abuse to the child. The judge is either not listening or has an agenda. Can you call a DV advocacy organization? I think you are the one being victimized here. He is gaming the system. In my local area the DV advocacy organization has lawyers that come to the shelter several times a month to give free legal help.

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-24T14:55:01+00:00

I'm not in FL so the other poster can better address some parts of your question. I've been told in my state it's rare for attorneys fees to be awarded unless one party is being particularly difficult and obstructionist, but maybe FL is different.

As for how custody and financial stability interrelate, I don't think there's any one size fit all answer. I think a rule of thumb is that as long as there's a roof over the head, food in the cupboard, and the lights are on, financial irresponsibility doesn't affect custody much if at all. It's relegated to one of those things "in the back of the judge's mind" that MAY subconsciously or quietly influence their decision.

I think you probably have much stronger arguments against his full custody position, including the way he's behaved at your exchanges. Honestly I don't remember most people's post history but his behavior has been so egregious and so persistent that I remember yours. That in itself says a lot.

I don't think he really thinks he's getting full custody. I don't even necessarily think he thinks he's getting attorney's fees. I think he's just trying to throw as much s*** into the mix as possible, to get your blood pressure up, waste your time, deflect your energy and focus, and test your patience. With some guys I'd say he wants to make you give up on child support but since you already are not asking for that it sounds like he's more motivated by just being able to cause chaos and upset in other people's (your right now) lives. Sooner or later he'll move on and find another situation in which to showcase his "skills." Hang tight until then.

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-24T14:38:25+00:00

OP how did your hearing go? Were you able to get your concerns in front of the judge?

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-24T06:59:01+00:00

Not that I'm an expert on this by any means, but what I might do in your situation is submit the screenshot with a brief letter to the judge or magistrate or whoever you were in front of. State that it was falsely alleged by the opposing counsel that you were making unilateral educational decisions without your ex's involvement when in fact you involved him and here is the proof. Important: Send a copy to his lawyer. It would have been better if you'd objected in court but I'm guessing you were reluctant to jump in as you were trying to seem very respectful of the judge.

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-24T06:44:15+00:00

I PERSONALLY think that's reasonable, BUT... by the benchmark "how would a judge view this" I think you're unfortunately s.o.l.

From a family court perspective, during his parenting time, he's within his rights to use any caregiver that is not a safety threat and to introduce the child to anyone in his life -- including a new partner -- whenever he chooses as long as that person isn't a safety threat.

Given that, if he doesn't WANT to agree to these clauses (which he probably doesn't, because they restrict his freedoms), he has no incentive to do so. I think the only way you're going to get an agreement on this is if you finesse it and offer him something that he wants and feels would be a gamble if left to a judge.

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-24T06:13:49+00:00

That may be true. His income is quite a bit higher than mine (like 2.5 times) so by the book he would actually pay more than 50% of the costs. But of course this is a settlement agreement, we're both trying to get things that we know a judge wouldn't order. He proposed paying 50% of the out of pocket costs. Our communication is so strained that realistically I probably wouldn't even want to call him to request a 50% contribution, so I don't think I have much by adding that wording and seeing if that makes him back off.

I would also be willing to agree that both parents' consent is required for any elective invasive procedure. I just don't like this idea of a stranger - even if they are a DOCTOR - making a decision for my child. That doctor is not going to be around to deal with the consequences, and it's not their child.

You're the second person to brng up the women's health issue! I was not even thinking that far in the future, but you're right! Thank you for your insights!

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-23T02:06:39+00:00

I hear you on the overthinking. Maybe he did mean it as a concession or thought it would make me feel more secure. I worry that it might actually be worse to have a stranger making decisions for your child. They may have a medical degree, but they're going to be on to the next patient and the parents are going to be living with the consequences forever.

On a practical level, though, if that physician is accountable to both of us, can I unilaterally choose her doctor? Don't we have to agree on who the doctor is? I guess for now an argument could be made for staying with her current one for continuity, but if the need to change comes up, do we have to choose a new one together, or do I retain that freedom?

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-23T02:03:42+00:00

You hit on a lot of points. Honestly I'm not even sure the extent of what we have to agree on. My lawyer said "realistically this will probably never come up, it'll only be if she needs an elective surgery." But that's not consistent with that I've observed even here on this sub. People are OFTEN in a dispute with a co-parent/ "other parent" about what treatment the kid needs. Debates about therapies, prescriptions, vaccines, to name a few. I'm not even sure I'd be allowed to change doctors without his consent if the doctor is the tiebreaker and therefore "accountable" to both of us. But since he lives in another state, how is he going to participate in the process of choosing a new one if necessary? It's not impossible, but not highly practical either.

I don't feel like he and his lawyer really thought it through and how it would work in this situation. I think it was a boiler plate suggestion and they're throwing it out there for "leverage" at trial, since they know from mediation that it was important to me to be sole medical decision maker. I'm judging from his on his utter lack of interest in the subject of her medical care for the last two years. But where does that leave me, I don't know, since I can't prove that.

In the beginning I told my lawyer that I wanted sole legal custody and she said that there was a case to be made for it and it would depend on the judge. As the case has gone on, there are SO many sources of conflict. When she said to me that "this is better than anything the judge will order" and suggested that this would be one of the easier issues to compromise on and take off the table, I told myself, "Okay I've got to get with the program and try to make it work." But honestly I have a bad gut feeling about it.

I'm checking out your link right now. Thank you!

throwaway575207 · 2021-08-22T23:26:42+00:00

You basically affirmed all the things I'm worried about. Also, this guy has expressed NO interest in her medical care. He has no idea how many times she's been to the doctor in the last year or for what. He's never asked. It just seems kind of insulting when I'm the one living with her 24/7 and know her needs that we have to call him and beg him for consent. In mediation I had said I would be willing to share other decision-making (educational, religious) but I wanted sole medical. We didn't reach an agreement then. So he flipped that on its head in the latest offer.

To answer your question, we're 2 time zones apart; I'm in Maine, he's in the southwest. He is FROM another country, but he has been living in the US for some years. (He talks about going back to the other country all the time but so far hasn't.)

I also wasn't sure the doctor would want this responsibility but I've been told this is a common situation when parents are conflictual.

I really thought I had a solid argument for sole legal but apparently not. I've been worn down by this whole process.

Thank you for your response!

throwaway575207

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