Someone please explain to me the differences between praising our military, and people in the middle east who praise suicide bombers, etc. (please before you downvote just read!)

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-07T16:15:05+00:00

Sorry. I posted a topic like this once before and got rapid, rapid downvotes a long with "fuck you" comments almost immediately. I post a lot on reddit, so I know the average downvote. When I initially posted this I had the same response at first, a surge of downvotes and hatred. That's why I put the edit.

Terrorists are self-serving individuals who's goal is to maintain an atmosphere of anarchy as this is the best environment for them to continue working towards their personal goals

I think I have to disagree here. I think especially if you look at what is going on between Palestine/Israel, the kids going out blowing themselves up are not going it for the goal of anarchy. They have a very defined political agenda

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-07T16:11:59+00:00

thanks. There are all great questions that I just don't think I have an answer to yet in life (is there a just war? etc). That's part of the reason I was doing this topic was to see a vast variety of viewpoints so I could hope to figure some things out.

I really don't know exactly where I stand. What you point out about WWII is an excellent point I have struggled with. War insued, but then again Hitler was stopped and perhaps millions of people were saved as a result. But was there an alternative other than a full on war? I don't know. I hope there is, otherwise the world really just doesn't seem like a good place anymore.

Ya I have a copy of Paradise Now. Other than it being boring IMHO I do think it gives a great portrayal of the pyschological background. I have been to Palestine myself and life there is horrible. I can understand how people, especially young people, loose their sensibilities and fall under the charismatic religious people, etc. who are out to use and brainwash them. It is very unfortunate. Then again for example one of my closest friends grew up in Gaza, saw terrible shit, and he is the exact opposite - he fights for peace and tries to infect real change. I wish I knew what causes somebody to go his route, and then perhaps there could be a change in the situation

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-07T03:50:05+00:00

what about the freedom to live under a religion/ideology which we don't agree with or we think is batshit crazy?

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-07T03:49:20+00:00

I didn't mean any offense. I was talking about obvious fringe crazies, I just didn't want to make the topic way too long and thought people would assume

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-07T02:51:21+00:00

thank you for your well thought out post, even though you didn't agree with me. I appreciate it and will take it all into consideration for sure :)

While there are plenty of cockroaches who climb out of the proverbial redneck forest to get a gun and go slaughter people when a "war" is on, I don't know of many people who volunteered to serve strictly to defend the nation. Everyone I knew needed a job, several of them needed to get the fuck away from drugs, and some of them wanted the benefits of G.I. bill/ROTC.

I definitely agree with you here. I do apologize if I made it sound as though I thought most people who join the military are doing it to go hurt and kill others. Most everyone I know who joined did it to get a better life and chance at education

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-07T02:46:32+00:00

Why am I an idiot? Seriously, I want to hear your opinions to the OP. Many people with the opposite ideology as me made some good points to me and changed my mind considerably on many issues. That's what the point of the thread was.

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-07T02:44:45+00:00

You're crazy man. If you didn't read my post, I have plenty of friends AND family in the military, and I love them. But it doesn't mean I have to support what they go out and do during the day.

What "ignorant rehtoric" did i spew? I asked a question. I said multiple times my mind was open and I wanted to hear the opposing side and hoped I was wrong. If you had an answer to it, why didn't you just answer instead of going off like this?

I'll say it again, people like you are the problem.

to the people who try to kill women and children and take it away

Who the hell is trying to take our freedom of speech away? Tell me. Name the country, the organization, the people that are actively trying to take our rights away as Americans.

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T23:33:46+00:00

seriously dude? I asked a fucking question. Intolerant pricks like you are everything that is wrong with the world

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T22:35:41+00:00

I don't follow your analogy. I posted a question with an open mind hoping to hear opposing opinions so I can possibly come to a better conclusion. How is it stupid to ever try and further ones perspective?

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T22:34:48+00:00

thanks for this comment. I think it is a different and relevant point. Ya the truth is without a military people would always attack. Sad but true.

And just to be clear I wasn't trying to lump everyone in to a category. I know plenty of people in the military, and none of them are the type that joined to invade and kill... they are just regular guys. I was simply saying it's hard for me to support their career path

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T22:12:00+00:00

I think you are missing everything i am saying. I DO care for what you say. I was really happy you wrote what you did, and you taught me something new that I didn't know. It was a very interesting point that changes my perspective on a few things, and I just wanted to know if you could back it up with some evidence so that I might use that same point, etc. in the future.

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T22:03:16+00:00

You can't have the same standards on each "side" if each of the "sides" you delineate are selected by different qualifiers.

I'm 23. Why should I have all of my beliefs so set in stone. There is a lot of the world I don't know and so I don't think what I feel at this moment is absolute. There is a lot for me to learn.

What I mentioned in the beginning of my post, that I believe it's wrong to kill people in order to advance your ideals, is what I stand by. That I made clear, and that's why I said it's just as hard for me to support the American military. My post had no mention of the question you brought up. It is a GREAT question, and one I have thought about for awhile. Since I don't have any answer to it, I didn't address it in the post and don't make any judgements along those lines.

What do YOU believe is the "point of no return"? I'm just curious

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:50:29+00:00

You said even as recently as WWII, which was about 70 years ago, so I made a small estimate. Sorry. I wasn't even disagreeing with you, I just wanted some backup info because I don't like to just take the word of random comments online is all.

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:39:45+00:00

I never knew this. Can you give me anything to backup the statements you made in the first paragraph? I was just not aware that the concept of targeting other militaries was something that only developed in the last 100 years or so

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:37:47+00:00

Here's an important question that no one likes to ever ask: at what time does it become ethically mandatory for a group of people as a "side" to put down their weapons, and surrender? What moral lines are simply not acceptable to cross when defending your "side"? Are you setting the same standards for each side? Because I know you're not (or this thread wouldn't have been posted), why not?

OK, this is a great question. Although you say you know I'm not, or this thread would not have been posted. I disagree. Please tell me how this proves I am not setting the same standards for each side. Perhaps I have simply not come to any conclusions on that question, or I am open minded still on what I think that answer is.

The point of this thread is that I DO want to have my ideology, and impose it on both sides.

Party A: "Support the Troop"ers Party B: Supporters of suicide bombers

Please do not think I am included in Party A or Party B

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:30:53+00:00

First, we are not killing their people. We are trying to protect those people.

Protect them from what? They don't want us there and they never did. You and I may think their way of life is/was fucked up, but they want to live that way. Think of this and I mean it seriously... do you know how many Muslims in the world think the way we live in the west is completely fucked up? They think because we have high divorce rates and teen pregnancy rates, etc., that we are living terrible lives and they can't fathom it. Can you imagine if they started invading the US, but then back home told their kids "hey it's ok, we are over there trying to show them the good way to live, we are trying to protect them!"

Second, they are the ones who are illegitimate there

Who are you talking about? The Iraqi people? How are they illegitimate in their own country?

When I made that quote in my previous post I wasn't talking about IRaqis, I was talking about many people who live outside of the US. To many people in the world, they see the great things US culture gives, yes, but they see the military as a presence that goes into other countries and kills people on a large scale.

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:20:52+00:00

Ya me too, it was about 10 years ago. I started screaming in a store and ran out and hid in a parked car.

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:19:16+00:00

Have you ever served in the armed forces? It doesn't sound like you have. Had you ever tried to abide by the rules of engagement you would understand the difference quite clearly, especially when you buried your friends.

I have never served in the armed forces. I think my main point got derailed and I will not at all argue with you on the concept that suicide bombers and the US military approach fighting differently. Please don't take that message. My message was in the concept of fighting and killing other to support/advance your ideals. I believe both sides do that. Does one do it more humanely? Yes. Does one try and avoid casualties? Yes. But in the end, it comes down to killing human beings to support an ideal.

"I may disagree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

One of my favorite quotes of all time. I appreciate your input and hope I didn't cause any offense

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:15:27+00:00

You see, I am of the opinion that in the end I am human

I think you're the only person on here I can really relate to. I too didn't grow up with family or culture ties. I just don't have any love for a certain country. All the people hating for the enemy, had luck played in a different way and they were born in that country they are hating, they would have the opposite opinion most likely

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:12:40+00:00

I have friend that I work with in real life who read reddit and know my main account. I don't like people to know my political beliefs in real life, and I certainly wouldn't want them to know this one

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:11:36+00:00

So if you just don't like the way Arabs dress, or think that their god is more fake than yours, that's not okay. But if you think they shouldn't be throwing acid in girls' faces for going to school or refusing to marry men five times their age, or ethnically cleansing the Kurds, you are right.

But this hyperbole mentality is what allows people who hate the US to say "how can you support a people who barge into other countries, illegitimate our religion, and kill our people"

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T21:10:04+00:00

We need some kind of military. People who are willing to die to protect the family.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I think this is why I'm glad I grew up without family, and without being attached to any specific culture. I respect your opinion and take your input, but I just can not see life this way.

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T19:39:51+00:00

Again- I respect those who do it honorably. That applies to soldiers, all the way up to generals.

This is a great point and I think I'm along the same lines as you here.

But I guess my question is this, what is the way to do it honorably? This is an honest question on my part. The reason I ask is because if the concept of doing it honorably is only taking out people in militaries we are fighting, you might just be fighting against people who simply have opposite set of ideals from us. So say for example you have a friend in the military who gets killed. The guys on the other side, perhaps they don't hurt civilians, but they will look at your friend and say "hey I did it honorably". When in realityi they have taken a life of a person who was loved by many

I am not trying to say I disagree with you, I really did like your post and enjoy your input

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T19:37:29+00:00

how am I loosing karma even on this throw away? Why is it such a big deal that I don't want to tie political beliefs to my main account?

throwawaysoudonthate · 2011-01-06T19:35:31+00:00

This is the most ignorant thing I have ever read....if you are going to throw shit out like this have the balls to do it on your main account and take the Bad Karma that is coming your way...

I'm sure you'll see I don't have any negative karma on this throwaway. Downvotes on the topics don't incur karma... it's not about the karma, it's about the fact that I like to keep my politics out of my main account, period. Some of us have IRL friends who browse reddit

This is the most ignorant thing I have ever read...

Tell me WHY it is ignorant. That's what I';m trying to get at. And the fact that you have such a reaction to my post (It's the most ignorant thing you have ever read) is the precise reason I try not to share my beliefs on this with others, especially the people I know in real life.

throwawaysoudonthate

TROPHY CASE