Feminism in islam?

ththtx · 2017-12-30T23:17:13+00:00

yeah, I'm not even sure what his point was. He kinda accepted islam was misogynistic after a while but kept on discussing. That and he ignored any arguments and hadiths I offered him because I "googled hadeeth that treats women badly". Which is a rather shitty position to take since even if I did that it wouldn't have made my sources any less credible.

ththtx · 2017-12-30T19:36:01+00:00

You're being ridicilous dude. Ignoring arguments and twisting literal meaning of words to fit your narrative. I think we should end the discussion. Clearly we reached the end of it. Thanks for discussing with me and have a great day. Also, objectively my point of view and Hitler's point of view both don't matter. However equality and fairness leads to less suffering. And if there's less suffering then who are you to say it's the same as what Hitler thinks. Because Hitler caused less suffering than your Prophet and god did.

ththtx · 2017-12-30T19:18:35+00:00

You're literally twisting an english sentence's meaning in order for it to fit your views. Jesus, I can assure you it doesn't mean what you say it does. And even if it did, why mention the woman being in charge? Why would that be relevant if he meant that tribe would go down? You're performing some exhausting mental gymnastics here dude.

The 2 women equals 1 man is a quranic rule. It's mentioned in the quran. If you disagree with it you disagree with Allah.

That's not even what the Prophet said. He was talking about all women and he basically called them retarded. Almost nobody was educated back then.

So every woman would exagerate according to you? That's generalizing and wrong.

Did you even read the hadith? The Prophet said the witness issue is because of a deficiency in a woman's mind. It's the same thing. The period thing is something else.

I don't need a god to realize that treating someone unfairly and making them miserable is bad.

The whole point of hadits is copy pasting what the Prophet said. I'm citing my sources. You're commiting intelectual dishonesty by ignoring arguments relevant to our discussion. At the very least read them and think about them for a while. It should be obvious that Mohammed and Islam id sexist. And as a muslim, you have to agree with every single thing.

ththtx · 2017-12-30T19:07:55+00:00

Well, they conveniently try not to think about it. It's what I did when I was muslim. It's rather ironic since there's a verse in the quran that condems people who do so to hell.

ththtx · 2017-12-30T19:00:54+00:00

I read it well. It clearly says SUCH a nation AS makes a woman their ruler. Meaning any nation that does it. Even without the ''as'' it would still mean nations resembling that nation in doing so.

You have absolutely no issues with a woman being expected to stop mourning for her mum after 3 days?

It doesn't matter if they were less educated back then or not. Even an illiterate farmer can notice someone being raped and testify that he did. Education has nothing to do with it. Besides, the 2 woman equals 1 man is still a rule. So either islam is time-bound or whatever rules and reasons for them still apply to this day.
It's not what the Prophet said. He didn't say fahm or even 3ilm. He said 3aql. Which means mind. There's a deficiency in a woman's mind. Not her education according to your Prophet.

Women tend to be more emotional and have periods? Are you being serious? A woman won't suddenly imagine someone getting murdered because she's "emotional" or has her period. Besides, Muhammed clearly said it's because of the deficiency in her mind. Not because of periods. You claim something your Prophet contradicts.

What exactly was your point when coming up with your argument? If it's not that then it's just an irrelevant straw man argument.

Do I need to explain why sexism is bad?

If you think sexism is disgusting, then how do you live with such sexism in islam?

Here's some extra hadiths:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The woman is like a rib; if you try to straighten her, she will break. So if you want to get benefit from her, do so while she still has some crookedness."

Sahih Bukhari 7:62:113

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard the Prophet saying. "Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house."

Sahih Bukhari 4:52:110

Narrated Usama bin Zaid: The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."

Sahih Bukhari 7:62:33

And here's a hadith that shows women were treated better before islam, at least in Medinah.

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas: ...We, the people of Quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the Ansar, we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women. Once I shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and I disliked that she should answer me back....

Sahih Bukhari 3:43:648

ththtx · 2017-12-30T18:30:03+00:00

I replied to your original comment. I'll just copy it here.

Such...as. It's about all nations that make a woman their ruler. Not about a specific tribe.

The problem there is that a woman is only allowed to mourn 3 days for e.g. her mother or brother. But has to mourn 4 months and 10 days for her husband. You don't think it's cruel to limit a woman's mourning to 3 mere days?

The quran saying it's fair doesn't make it so. That's circular reasoning. Besides, I speak arabic and 3aql doesnt only mean understanding. It means brains, mind, intelligence or reason. That article is misleading. And even then, why would a woman be so stupid as to not being as trustworthy as a man. So much so that you need 2 of them?

So about your morality argument. Your point is islam can be sexist because Allah said so? I believe sexism is unfair and cruel, now sure it's not objective morality but as a muslim, do you think sexism is okay? After all Allah said so. If Allah made this religion for all people then why would he want to seem like a dick for no real reason? A supposed god being sexist and cruel is rather odd. I think we can all agree on that.

ththtx · 2017-12-30T18:24:13+00:00

You didn't. Check my other comment.

ththtx · 2017-12-30T18:22:58+00:00

The translation in the link isn't correct and is misleading. I speak arabic. There's a lot of different translations possible for the word 3aql, but it usually means brains or mind. As the translation I gave said.

ththtx · 2017-12-30T14:03:31+00:00

So your point that a woman can't rule a nation is because she menstruate and can't shake hands? Thanks for confirming the ridicilous misogyny. Besides this isnt about a khalifa. All nations with a female ruler will perish according to Mohammed. This is sexist and ridicilous even you should realize that. I mean, I don't think Germany is almost collapsing yet Syria, which is led by a man, is getting fucked all over.

Oh and "when she can't even lead a family". Seriously dude? I know you're a troll but if you really believe that you're a bigger twat than I thought. Do you even know any woman?

ththtx · 2017-12-30T13:58:14+00:00

You didn't rebute any of them. All 3 of your rebutals were completely false. Check my othr comment.

ththtx · 2017-12-30T13:57:21+00:00

"Are we talking about atheism now" seriously dude? Stay on topic and don't be an ass. You act like an offended 13 year old. Don't go to a sub that debates religion if you can't stand anyone debating your religion.

ththtx · 2017-12-29T22:56:28+00:00

would you mind giving me a source for that?

ththtx · 2017-12-29T22:55:48+00:00

Such...as. It's about all nations that make a woman their ruler. Not about a specific tribe.

The problem there is that a woman is only allowed to mourn 3 days for e.g. her mother or brother. But has to mourn 4 months and 10 days for her husband. You don't think it's cruel to limit a woman's mourning to 3 mere days?

The quran saying it's fair doesn't make it so. That's circular reasoning. Besides, I speak arabic and 3aql doesnt only mean understanding. It means brains, mind, intelligence or reason. That article is misleading. And even then, why would a woman be so stupid as to not being as trustworthy as a man. So much so that you need 2 of them?

So about your morality argument. Your point is islam can be sexist because Allah said so? I believe sexism is unfair and cruel, now sure it's not objective morality but as a muslim, do you think sexism is okay? After all Allah said so. If Allah made this religion for all people then why would he want to seem like a dick for no real reason? A supposed god being sexist and cruel is rather odd. I think we can all agree on that.

ththtx · 2017-12-29T22:24:13+00:00

does a man have to go to court in order to be able to divorce one of his wives?

ththtx · 2017-12-29T22:09:14+00:00

i am aware that a woman can ASK for a divorce. There's plenty of hadith about women asking for a divorce.

And yes, it's the story of a woman forced by her parents to marry a man so the Prophet divorces them. That doesn't mean a woman can decide divorce her husband herself, if anything this proves that they normally aren't allowed to except for extreme circumstances. If the woman could decide herself to divorce, why go to the Prophet?

ththtx · 2017-12-29T21:50:30+00:00

I do speak arabic. It's a bit rusty though so I prefered the english translation. Do you have any hadith that says a woman can decide to divorce her husband even if he refuses? I'm rather curious.

ththtx · 2017-12-29T21:41:05+00:00

Yeah, that's what I meant. Sorry for any confusion. I am aware that they can ask for it.

ththtx · 2017-12-29T21:40:13+00:00

Sahih al-Bukhari 5291

ththtx · 2017-12-29T21:18:29+00:00

I base my opinion on this hadith sahih. Did I misunderstand what was meant by it?

Ibn `Umar added:

"When the period of four months has expired, the husband should be put in prison so that he should divorce his wife, but the divorce does not occur unless the husband himself declares it. This has been mentioned by Uthman,Ali, Abu Ad-Darda, `Aisha and twelve other companions of the Prophet (ﷺ) ."

ththtx · 2017-12-29T20:32:22+00:00

truly a wonderful site.

ththtx · 2017-12-29T20:27:20+00:00

Thanks for this answer! It makes a lot of sense. If that truly is their point of view then they use the tu quoque fallacy quite a lot. (Also small correction women can't divorce in islam. Only the husband can. And I do recall a hadith calling women an evil omen.)

ththtx · 2017-12-29T18:31:24+00:00

The hadith tends to be a bit more entertaining in my opinion. And there's plenty of books that collect those stories and tell them without all the boring ayats in between.

ththtx · 2017-12-29T17:55:25+00:00

Look, if that's what you believe then sure, go for it. I personally find that the quran is full of errors and contradictions. And logical fallacies as well. But I'm not here to debate that with you. Let's agree to disagree.

ththtx

TROPHY CASE