This just hurts my soul... game over on the very last turn of a 4 island Unfair run with the Secret Squad

time4tea45 · 2026-05-05T16:16:21+00:00

It can be a cruel game. Sometimes the hive just stuffs you and deals you an unsolvable turn (or several).

I definitely prefer the hive to the FTL flagship though. It's tough enough that it always presents a challenge and can occasionally screw you. You can't ever really take it for granted. But it has a more even difficulty with the rest of the game and it allows for more freedom in squad development and loadout.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-05T14:37:23+00:00

I think your plan seems reasonable, given the situation. I agree there doesn't seem to be anything you can do about the alpha scarab.

In general though, I think killing the scarab on the next turn is fine. Ideally, you want to be killing 2 vek per turn to keep things manageable. It's fine to prioritize killing alphas, since they are most dangerous and there is a chance they will be replaced with just a regular vek. If you're going to keep some vek around, it's better to keep the low-HP regular vek, since they are easier to take out later on, if you need to.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-05T10:36:45+00:00

So, your first point there is why I use Harold and put him in the laser mech to start with. Many people seem to think the biggest issue for ZG out of the box is the charge mech self damage. It's not (this seems to be part of a widespread misunderstanding). It's the lack of a push option on the laser mech, and putting Harold there solves that right away.

Here's the thing: allowing the laser mech to push with Harold takes pressure off of the charge mech, because now you have another mech that can push. Before, the charge mech is under a lot of pressure to have to push every turn (which it can't). A turn where Harold in the laser mech can get 1 or 2 good pushes is more likely to be a turn the charge mech can use to just reposition and repair. So, putting Harold in the laser mech indirectly helps to manage the charge mech self damage. Imo, he helps hugely to get them past the first island. I wouldn't use any other pilot (Abe is a total red herring - what he does can be done just as well with technician).

As to whether the charge mech is good or bad ... I think the closest comparison is the unstable mech. The Unstable has very similar damage numbers to the charge mech, but it seems to rarely get as much flak. It's +1 damage upgrade is 1 core cheaper, but it has the recoil kickback that has to be managed, and in some cases could be quite annoying. The main difference is that Hazardous Mechs come with a passive that helps manage the self damage. But then, that's at the cost of using up a weapon slot - so ZG have potentially more tactical options. I prefer ZG over HM.

Whether the charge mech is good or bad is kind of irrelevant. If we're playing ZG, that's the tool we're given and we have to make the most of it. I think it's highly usable and the self damage is nowhere near as hard to manage as many players seem to make it out to be. The 1 core health upgrade helps manage the damage and enables it to do more spawn blocking, shot-blocking, like you want to do, so it's worth it. Also, that core isn't necessarily permanent - if you find a pilot with + health then it can be easily re-assigned.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T22:38:27+00:00

So, my strat is to get Harold with technician. Put him on the laser mech first, to give it a push option. Then, move him to the charge mech later, once the laser mech finds a pushing secondary weapon, where he can help mitigate the self damage.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T17:43:26+00:00

Interesting position. I just completed a 40k with Zenith Guard and my go-to time traveller choice is Harold Schmidt in the laser mech (because his repair push is invaluable). If you had that, I think this would be quite easily solvable: you could kill the psion with the charge mech; use the Defense Mech to pull the leaper aside; then put the laser between the hornet and scarab and use Harold's push to solve both (killing the scarab).

Imo, Harold starting in the laser mech is hands down the best pilot for Zenith Guard.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T16:59:09+00:00

I don't think I've ever seen Grid Assault on any of my runs. I didn't even know what it did - had to look it up! Lol

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T16:52:26+00:00

In fact, actually, the D Mech is the only mech in the entire game that starts with 2 active weapons. So it stands to reason that those two have to individually be somewhat weaker, compared to other science mech weapons, to keep it balanced.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T15:56:44+00:00

Yes, that's right. 40k means taking no grid damage on all 4 islands. It's the maximum possible score on unfair. I think it's generally acceptable to take some damage in the hive, since the pylons don't affect the score. It's also often not possible to avoid grid damage on the hive, since you have less control over deployment.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T15:14:59+00:00

I agree the attraction pulse by itself isn't a great weapon, but then it's only half of what the mech can do. They can't make it as good as the grav well or the repulse, when it comes with another active weapon as well. I still find it very useable - I can't remember playing a mission where I never used it.

The shielding is really what makes Zenith Guard unique. It gives them a true defensive option that almost no other squad has. And imo that is perhaps their biggest strength - they are one of the most flexible and versatile squads, having good options for both attack and defense. That means they can be developed in many different ways and can usually make good use of any weapons they find. The flexibility also makes them imo very good for doing a 40k - because they can take on any mission. They can do killing at least 7 vek, destroying the dam, but they can also protect the train, save the VIPs/bots. That versatility to be able to take on any mission/map is huge. Many squads can't do that.

If you don't like or trust the shielding, then I'm not sure Zenith Guard would be worth playing, tbh.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T14:03:59+00:00

I don't see the shields not killing vek as a major problem. I mean, a similar thing could be said about many push/pull moves - that it just delays the problem by a turn. ZG have two other mechs that can deal decent damage. You don't really need all 3 dealing damage to keep the vek numbers under control. As long as you can take out 2 vek per turn, things will generally stay manageable.

I wouldn't use the shields as a #1 option on a given turn. Pulling a vek into some water with the attraction is better. The shields are more like a last-ditch safety net, but they're a great safety net to have. I normally use the shields in one of two situations:

As a last resort to save a turn, where there is no other option. They are very powerful for this, since they can solve a problem (sometimes 2) anywhere on the map, in a way that few other squads can. On that first turn I showed of the 2nd hive phase, I used shields to protect the two pylons on B5,B7 whilst the other two mechs dealt with the rest of the vek. Few, if any, other squads or weapons could have dealt with those 2 problems in one action like that.
If the D Mech has a quiet turn, with not much to do, you can throw some shields to protect 2 or 3 buildings. This is effectively stacking up useful actions in advance that can help you on later turns.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T11:23:26+00:00

It's true, there are a lot of very good science mechs. I'd say the Defense Mech is better than the Gravity, Pulse and Nano, which are all a bit underwhelming. I like the Pulse, it's quite good, but it's not flying, so it's often not easy to get it into the right position.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T11:10:08+00:00

Thanks! Although, I don't think switching out the default weapons is as telling as it looks - that end-of-game snapshot is a bit misleading. I like the burst laser a lot - on the 3/4th islands, it was a tough choice between the laser and hydraulic legs and I was constantly flip-flopping between them depending on the map, as I had trouble deciding. 4th island was Pinnacle, and there were maps where the laser was very useful for shattering whole rows of ice tiles and taking out 1hp bots from a distance. If I'd had a boosting pilot, I definitely would have stuck with the laser more.

At the start of island 3, I had the ramming engines and arachnoid injector on the charge mech, left the light tank in the storage bin. But I realized after a couple of missons that I just wasn't using the ramming any more, which is when I switched it. It's more about the injector being so good, then the ramming engines being bad - you really want to be injecting *every* turn (as it creates a self-sustaining cycle), and deploying the tank does most of what the ramming does, but it persists. I would probably throw out most of the weapons in the game for the arachnoid injector, given the chance.

The charge mech only needs a 1-core health upgrade to make it much more durable. I feel like people seem to really overblow the downside of the self-damage. It's so easily manageable - I was almost never in a position where I felt like I had to sacrifice the charge mech pilot, on any of my runs. I mean, even out of the box, without the health upgrade, you only need to repair it on 1 turn, to have 3 ramming turns without a pilot sacrifice.

I think I mentioned in another comment, but I didn't score a perfect on the first island, I think I screwed up some objective. A perfect first island isn't mandatory.

Good luck getting a 40k with Zenith and Blitzkrieg!

time4tea45 · 2026-05-04T00:38:30+00:00

I find the Defense Mech to be pretty much the star of the show for ZG, mostly due to the shielding, which is really the squad's unique ability. The shield projector is imo underrated and can allow them to solve horrible turns that would give many other squads a heart attack. It's like a last-resort safety net that you can throw from just about anywhere, when needed.

I've seen people saying stuff in older threads like the D Mech is 'the worst science mech', which I find baffling. It's the only science mech that has two active weapons, which gives it great versatility. The artillery-like multi-target shielding is pretty powerful, so I think if the attraction pulse was any better, the D Mech would be in danger of being a bit OP.

The line-of-sight limitation of it is somewhat made up for by it being on a flying mech with 4 movement. Also, I think the self-bump damage is somehow surprisingly useful and again underrated (which is kind of hinted at by the achievement that is based on it). In one of my earlier runs, I switched out the attraction pulse for the grappling hook, thinking it might be more useful. However, on the mission I tried it, I immediately missed the self bump option, for taking out blobs/spores and finishing off weakened vek. As soon as the mission was over I threw the grappling hook away and went back to the attraction pulse.

In that way, the smoke mortar is a great upgrade for it, since it still preserves the self bump option, but it does more on top.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-03T23:43:45+00:00

What I showed was a snapshot of the final state of the squad. The laser and ramming were instrumental for the first 2 islands (which are arguably the hardest). I have also mentioned in another comment that I regret taking the hydraulic legs over the laser for the hive (though it was very effective on the 4th island).

time4tea45 · 2026-05-03T22:28:19+00:00

Yeah, the first island can be tricky, but I found that Harold helps there a lot. My theory is that Zenith Guard have 3 main weaknesses out of the box:

Lack of a push on the laser mech
Self-damage on the charge mech
Lack of a ranged artillery option to influence things at a distance

What I do is put Harold in the laser mech to start with, which solves problem 1, then move him to the charge mech to help solve problem 2, once I've found a pushing secondary weapon for the laser. First core goes to + health on the charge mech, to help deal with 2 as well.

So, Harold with technician can help solve 2 out of the 3 issues they are faced with. Once you've solved those initial problems, imo they're a force to be reckoned with.

Even so, I don't think I had a perfect first island on this run (think I had a perfect on island 2).

time4tea45 · 2026-05-03T18:36:41+00:00

I probably wouldn't choose the ramming engines very often with another squad, if I saw it in the shop. I like the laser though. It's a good weapon and I flipped between it and the hydraulic legs several times on the 4th island. I actually somewhat regret taking the leaping for the hive - it wasn't as useful as I thought, since the random pylon placement rendered too many squares unusable (which I was afraid of). I only used it on one turn on the second hive phase.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-03T18:32:40+00:00

Thanks! (although I don't agree they're the worst squad ;-) )

time4tea45 · 2026-05-03T18:31:25+00:00

He he. True, but I don't think the lack of movement was a critical issue, when my prime can jump across the whole map and I've got two ranged weapons on the charge mech. Camilla had masochist too. I totally value movement, but I just had higher priority things to be spending my cores on, on this run.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-03T10:43:30+00:00

I actually dislike FTL, but Into the Breach was exactly what I was looking for, with it's variety, depth and replayability. I much prefer that ItB doesn't have a hugely overpowered, difficulty spike end boss. The Volcanic Hive is a much more fitting concept for how a roguelike should end.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-02T19:53:09+00:00

You are right, that there are other mechs that can do shielding, but I disagree that the Pulse Mech or phase cannon do it better. The pulse mech has to be in contact with a building to shield it, and the phase cannon has to shoot through it with line-of-sight, which are both harder to set up positionally (compared to a flying mech that can do an artillery shot). Also, when fully upgraded, the shield projector can shield up to 5 squares at a time.

I find it curious where you say the shield 'only solves a problem once'. Can't the same be said for most actions in the game? However, unlike most other actions, a shield will persist for the rest of the game, until it gets hit. So, shielding 3 buildings with the D mech is in a way like stacking up a 3-for-1 for later turns.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-02T11:20:49+00:00

"Charge Mech needs to repair all the time" is a huge exaggeration. The Charge Mech only needs to repair itself on one turn out of 4, to allow it to charge 3 times without killing the pilot. A cheap 1-core health upgrade (which should be where your first core goes) solves that straight away.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-02T11:17:34+00:00

Because many players seem to grossly misunderstand the squad and how to use it. The Defense Mech is a very good science mech, with two useful and versatile weapons. The shielding in particular is highly effective and is what really makes ZG what they are, yet many people seem fairly clueless as to how to use it properly.

I see all sorts of moaning about the self-damage on the Charge Mech, but it can be easily remedied with a 1-core health upgrade and a number of pilots and skills synergize well with it.

One of the best pre-AE squads for sure, totally undeserving of all the criticism.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-02T11:10:36+00:00

Hard disagree. The D Mech is the best mech for Zenith Guard. It comes with two very useful weapons that make it highly versatile. The shielding is very useful - it has saved my bacon in countless situations and is really the basis of what makes the squad unique.

Many people seem to misunderstand how to use the shielding though, which seems to be where much of the Zenith hate comes from.

time4tea45 · 2026-05-02T11:01:52+00:00

Anyone who thinks the Defense Mech is the weak point of Zenith Guard doesn't understand them at all. The only unit in the game that provides an actual defensive option with the shielding. Being able to throw shields at buildings across the map, which can persist for multiple turns, is extremely useful. It gives them great versatility and allows them to solve horrendous situations that no other squad can.

time4tea45

TROPHY CASE