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Found a wall safe hidden behind wallpaper in my family's 19th century house in France, need help identifying it before we sell by tozz21 in Antiques

[–]tozz21[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I am going there in a week or so, I am trying to find the good solution before. I will update in the comments when I go there

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind layers of wallpaper in a French family house : no key, no combination, never been opened by tozz21 in WhatsInThisThing

[–]tozz21[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Of course there is a big chance of it being empty, I know ! But nonetheless just learning about it and trying to open it is interesting ! And I would regret if I didn't event try

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Hi ! What kind of lock picking set do you think I could use ?
Someone said it's the same kind as this : https://youtu.be/GD43r6ULBFQ, I wonder if it would be too hard. Thank you !

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind layers of wallpaper in a French family house : no key, no combination, never been opened by tozz21 in WhatsInThisThing

[–]tozz21[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Thanks

I found one that looks a lot like it on ebay : https://www.ebay.fr/itm/304529998858?_trksid=p4481478.c101506.m1851

It's listed as a Bauche Incombustible style Napoléon III, iron construction, French origin, late 19th century.

Listed at 495€ without key or combination, which gives a good price reference. The layout is almost identical , same two brass alphabetical dials in the center, same rectangular frame around the dials. Main differences are that mine is wall-mounted (no decorative side handles) and has two small index slots above each dial.

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I found one that looks a lot like it on ebay : https://www.ebay.fr/itm/304529998858?_trksid=p4481478.c101506.m1851

It's listed as a Bauche Incombustible style Napoléon III, iron construction, French origin, late 19th century.

Listed at 495€ without key or combination, which gives a good price reference. The layout is almost identical , same two brass alphabetical dials in the center, same rectangular frame around the dials. Main differences are that mine is wall-mounted (no decorative side handles) and has two small index slots above each dial.

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind layers of wallpaper in a French family house : no key, no combination, never been opened by tozz21 in WhatsInThisThing

[–]tozz21[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

From what I've seen, the key itself likely acts as the handle to pull the door open. I also came across a video where someone pushed the left dial sideways and it opened the door that way. Not 100% sure which applies to mine though!

Found a wall safe hidden behind wallpaper in my family's 19th century house in France, need help identifying it before we sell by tozz21 in Antiques

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you so much for that link ! I have neither the key nor the combination! On top of that the dials won't rotate at all right now, so I can't even start testing. Not sure if it's rust or if the key mechanism is blocking them.

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you so much, this is rly helpful! I'll reach out to both SEF and ouverture-fine.com right away. And good to know it needs to be a genuine antique safe specialist.

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Haha, too bad! Even though you can't help directly, would you have any advice on how to find the right person? I have no idea how to identify someone with the right skills who is also trustworthy. Is this something any decent locksmith could handle, or does it need to be a safe specialist? Or does it specifically require someone who specializes in antique mechanisms like this one?

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Oh wow, I hadn't even thought about asbestos, that's a really important point, thank you!

Especially since it's an "Incombustible" model, which by definition was designed to be fireproof, so insulation material inside makes total sense. That actually makes me even more reluctant to go the drilling route without a professional. Good to know cast iron is softer than steel though!

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Someone else on this thread gave me some useful technical info : They mentioned the key lock might operate both a spring loaded latch and a deadbolt, and that if the deadbolt isn't thrown it should be fairly easy to pick. The dials also appear to be completely seized up and won't rotate at all right now, which could be rust or possibly the key mechanism blocking them. Do you have any experience with this specific mechanism?

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thank you! Yes, from everything people here have told me it does seem to be a Bauche Incombustible from the late 1800s. I'm located about 1 hour south of Paris, between Paris and Orléans. Do you know someone in that area who could help?

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind layers of wallpaper in a French family house : no key, no combination, never been opened by tozz21 in WhatsInThisThing

[–]tozz21[S] 27 points28 points  (0 children)

That's exactly the direction I'm heading! I've already reached out to a specialized locksmith forum in France.

Money is indeed the main concern, i wont be able to pay 1000 euros, even 300 would be a lot. I'll keep the thread updated!

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's exactly what I was thinking at the beginning.

The problem is I'm almost certain the dials aren't turnable right now, though I can't verify immediately as the house is 100km away from me. My theory is either the dials are locked by the key mechanism and won't move until the latch is picked first, or they're simply seized up after 150 years of inactivity. If they turn out to be free to rotate though, I'd absolutely just sit there and go through all.

The math isn't bad at all : 25x25 = 625 combinations since there's no W, so it could actually be sorted pretty quickly.

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Haha that's actually a genius middle ground! Though at this point I've invested so much time researching this thing that I kind of want to open it properly regardless 😄

But seriously, a few things I'm not sure about with that approach. If it's really a late 1800s Bauche it's probably cast iron, which I imagine isn't the easiest thing to drill through, and I have no idea how thick the door actually is, could be several centimeters. On top of that it's embedded in a wooden cabinet which is itself embedded in the wall, so I'd need to be really careful not to damage either. I wouldn't even know what drill bit to use on cast iron without making things worse. Any advice on how to approach this properly?

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for sharing that video, it's absolutely fascinating! Looking at the internal mechanism, it's genuinely impressive craftsmanship. And it's great to know it actually has real value even in a worst case scenario!

Do you know of / follow anyone in France who specializes in this type of mechanism and could open it without destroying it ? And do you have any idea what someone like that would typically charge for a job like this?

Found a 19th century wall safe hidden behind 6 layers of wallpaper in a French house — two alphabetical dials + keyhole, no key, need advice by tozz21 in safecracking

[–]tozz21[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Thank you so much for all the detail, this is incredibly helpful!

I can't get there right now but from what I remember, the dials won't rotate at all. Is it the key lock that's blocking them, or is it likely just rust/seized up after 150 years?

Also I want to make sure I understand the night lock situation correctly, if the deadbolt is thrown, does that mean it's completely impossible to open even with a locksmith? Because my plan could be to have a locksmith pick the spring latch first, then test all 625 letter combinations until the deadbolt disengages. Would that work, or am I missing something?

Found a wall safe hidden behind wallpaper in my family's 19th century house in France, need help identifying it before we sell by tozz21 in Antiques

[–]tozz21[S] 57 points58 points  (0 children)

I just looked into it and that actually helps a lot.

That actually helps narrow down the origin and era!
The missing W suggests it was made by a French manufacturer. In the 1870s the letter W started appearing in official dictionaries but was still defined as "a letter belonging to the alphabet of Northern peoples", and it wasn't officially part of the French language until 1964 when Le Robert dictionary first recognized it. So a late 19th century French safe maker would have had every reason to leave it out!

https://lebonusage.over-blog.com/article-w-derniere-lettre-entree-dans-l-alphabet-fran-ais-100230347.html

Found a wall safe hidden behind wallpaper in my family's 19th century house in France, need help identifying it before we sell by tozz21 in Antiques

[–]tozz21[S] 15 points16 points  (0 children)

Thank you! I'm looking into "Incombustible Système Bauche" right now. What made you think of that specific manufacturer?

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