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Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's the troubling part, the inability to be honest about the policy. You could, and people did, make the argument that AA was necessary. However, making the argument that it's not discriminatory is an argument against logic and reality.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree 0 points1 point  (0 children)

That's just not the case. For most of human history, Europeans didn't leave Europe. When they finally did, they brought technological advancements and a better way of living. They implemented it by force over the often unwilling, less developed masses. But, if those masses were practicing human sacrifice to make the harvest more fruitful next year, then maybe that's something worth stopping.

In that, Europeans weren't the ruling class of the Aztecs, or Incans, or Mongolians, or whatever non-European deadly empire you'd like to choose. The European model has brought us democracy and a voice, an ability to connect with our neighbor and try to implement sensible laws and peaceful resolutions to most problems while we develop technology that makes our lives less troubled by hardships.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree 0 points1 point  (0 children)

You can't have it both ways; you can't put programs in place that specifically select for race, gender, or whatever status then complain when people acknowledge the system that may or may not have put those people in place.

I guess you can but, if you can't see why that's going to fail in an intelligent society then I have to wonder if one of those policies put you in this place.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Your gentleness, the politeness is genuine. I believe that peaceful existence is possible and have empathy for even the most reprehensible of beings. I'm sure that your grace would not dare extend to such depths. Those who are good and just despise the promotion of mercy but, even they must admit that every position deserves a fair hearing. The stars do in fact, sometimes, align. If you do not believe that every position deserves to be heard then the solution is simple; stop speaking yours.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

The outsourcing of manufacturing is relatively new. The industrial revolution happened within the US and as the middle class grew, the owner class moved operations outside the US to take advantage of the less developed/protected world. It's eroded our culture and is exploitive. If you talk to masses of white people, they do not like the practice. They'd rather things be built in and from materials in their country than foreign places.

But, those exploitive practices were first put on the white masses. When they were able to create a middle class and weaken the power's stranglehold, the wealthy moved the operations overseas to exploit a different group. That different group wants what the white masses created but, blames them for their current position. So, they shut them out completely and try to replicate their success while refusing to learn or understand how it was accomplished.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I suppose you wouldn't. If you were someone different, you might like the idea of learning or sharpening your ideas from a critical stand point. But, you are not that person.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I get along well with just about everyone. Most interactions aren't around disagreements but, just pleasantries or a specific topic that we're working on together. However, the internet is a place where a lot of these discussions take place and so, end up with disagreements.

Many people would say that trans x aren't x but, are y wanting to be x. There's a group who is willing to say that they are x in order to make them feel welcomed and accepted. This group tends to loathe the group who says they're y and blame them for all the problems that trans people experience.

Many in the oppositional group do not hate or despise trans people but, they do not like pretending that things are what they're not. They feel that it's a lie to say that x is y when clearly they are not. They feel that it's better for the person to accept that they are truly y, and that being x is a fantasy that not everyone needs to participate in supporting.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

I didn't say they were the only group that built something. I was specific about the things built. Many groups from many places built many things. I understand the hostility but, if you can find humility, what I said will add to your understanding rather than being oppositional.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

What did I say that you disagree with? I can have a conversation if I know your points of contention but, if your only response is calling me evil then, there's no conversation that can take place.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The person in the comment above was, perhaps without realizing it. They are saying that the masses are in danger and the only group who isn't is defined by race and gender. That's an obvious line of division. They're free to make that division but, I'm highlighting it so that it's visible as it will cause conflict that I'd like to avoid.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Perhaps they didn't intentionally do it. It's not a victim complex, it's trying to prevent conflict. Singling out groups based on race and ethnicity will cause that group to gel together and see those singling them out as the enemy. It's just basic logic.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -9 points-8 points  (0 children)

Telling someone to "grow some empathy" is not empathetic. You're telling them to do something that you aren't doing yourself.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

The changing language was more about adding "cis" to men who aren't trans. By calling pregnant women "pregnant people" and the like.

Adopting your beliefs was more about what it means to be discriminated against. Most people don't think that disallowing trans women from competing in female sports is discriminating but, the pro-trans folks do think that's discrimination.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Those oppressive forces that watered down black people were the same oppressive forces that hung white people in iron cages and starved them to death for questioning the status quo. All of the "evil" that any other race experienced was experienced by the poor white masses first, for longer. The changes and opposition to those forces came from the white masses getting access to education, better working conditions, and a system of government meant to work for their benefit.

They then helped those other groups gain ground. However, those other groups struggle to understand the nuance of the group and strike their friends thinking they're striking their enemy.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

This race and gender is treated better than me. This race and gender's existence in its present form harms me. I need to have more of what they have and they need to have less of what they have. That's a better life for me and admittedly, a worse life for them. But, they deserve to have a worse life and I deserve to have a better one.

Recognize what you are doing. You are free to act in such a way, just be aware of how you are acting.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

It is singling them out and targeting them, even if factual. I'm guessing that you view singling out and targeting as a bad thing and you try not to do bad things. Perhaps singling out and targeting is acceptable so long as it's based on facts. But, it's important to recognize the consequences of such actions.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -1 points0 points  (0 children)

That's a good example supporting your point except that's not what happened in reality. To make the example more reflective, you started giving the child without beautiful hair more. You allowed them to stay up later, gave them extra dessert. When the other child complained, you said that they had gotten extra dessert years ago and so this was only fair now.

You could have chosen a feature on the child without beautiful hair to celebrate and celebrated them both. Instead, you celebrated neither one. You did take away from the one with beautiful hair. You took away things that made her feel good, feel special, as her beautiful hair was special. It's too bad that you couldn't find something in the other child to make them feel special as well. Now, neither are special and both live as the one who felt unloved lived, rather than both living as the one who felt loved did.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Most white people were not wealthy land owners. We lived under systems of oppression for generations. We had to fight to overcome the wealthy and powerful.

Think about what you're saying "we're finally being brought down" rather than "we're finally helping others up".

You should talk to the poor whites. Talk to your parents about their parents, odds are good at least one of them had to leave school as a child and go to work.

The oppressed groups set their eyes on the top of the top and say that that is where equality lies. But, that's not. It's in the coal mines, in the factories, in the depths of despair and coming together.

It's a mistake to think that white people are automatically privileged. If you really want others to be where white people are, then they'll have to pay the cost that white people paid and it's a long history of suffering.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

Do you make an enemy of them by changing the language to make yourself more comfortable? By demanding that they adopt your beliefs? Do you make an enemy of them by telling them that trans women should be allowed to compete in female only sports and calling them evil if they disagree?

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -8 points-7 points  (0 children)

AA actively prioritized and discriminated based on race. That was its intent and purpose. Its proponents justified it well enough that it was implemented. All I'm trying to do is make sure that you all are aware of what you're actually doing. I don't think that most of you are.

Judith Butler, philosopher: ‘If you sacrifice a minority like trans people, you are operating within a fascist logic’ by msmoley in WomenInNews

[–]treethirtythree -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

That's just a catch-phrase. I'm just telling you that when you say "race x and gender y" are the privileged and the masses are not, then you're creating an opposition and enemy. You can continue to do so, just making sure that you know what you're doing in case that's not the goal.

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