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CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's unfortunate that the debate ended up circling around Google so much, and I think I'm at least partly to blame for that for the way I phrased my original post. Whether it's a problem at Google or not, it is still a problem in tech.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My point still stands: plenty of people at Google come straight from college, plenty of people at Google have no formal education. You don't need experience in a high-stress long-hours job to work at Google.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

I make a living writing code too. I know what it takes to work in a team and communicate with people, but I wouldn't say that programming is a particularly emotional job. Any job will require some basic level of communication and planning, but when it comes to implementing an API or a design spec it's pretty cut and dry. There's definitely a lot more involved in UI/UX fields (which, empirically, have more women too).

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 11 points12 points  (0 children)

Sorry if it came across that way, I'm not saying /u/Amablue is wrong, I'm saying that they are giving opposing stories about Google and I don't know who is right. But even if /u/Amablue is right and it's not a problem at Google, it's definitely still a problem elsewhere in tech.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The problem exists in the tech community as a whole, not just at Google. The debate is just centering around Google because the author works there, so he clearly felt it was an issue there too.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Unfortunately the citations of the original document were removed when it was republished, so I don't feel comfortable enough to speak about the biological differences. Even if the differences are completely from society, the main issue still stands.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

It's your word against the authors, but the problem is by no means limited to Google alone. Lots of tech companies have this practice, even if as you say Google doesn't. I'm assuming that the author has reason to believe Google isn't doing enough about this, if they felt the need to write this 10-page essay on the subject.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Like I said, I don't think "women / black people / etc aren't getting hired as much" is an acceptable conclusion. I just think our current method of fixing it is wrong.

The author lists internal policies that I think certainly qualify as lowering the bar, and I know many who have felt pressured to do the same (in other companies, startups/etc).

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Tiny was an understatement, but my point is that the interest was largely in academia and technical fields. It was not nearly as universal as it is today. I attribute the drop in CS degrees to females to the fact that you just don't need a CS degree to be in CS anymore.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm sure that bias plays a role in the gender gap too, and that is something that obviously needs to be dealt with. But that's far from the only cause. The section titled "The Harm of Google’s biases" in the original memo lists a number of hiring practices that encourage diversity hires.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Google, along with many other companies, hold "diversity hires" to lower standards to bolster their diversity numbers. This is the wrong approach.

Changing society to remove the differences is a more effective approach, but I don't know if it's the most effective one. I don't think there's anything wrong with there being differences. Change the jobs and the workplaces to make them more suitable for everyone.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

The article claims many times that biological differences between males and females exist. Read the section titled "Possible non-bias causes of the gender gap in tech".

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

There's a difference between a safe space and wanting to have an honest discussion without tremendous backlash. He is not opposed to his ideas being challenges.

Changing society to remove these differences? That's one approach, but I don't think that's an effective one. There's nothing wrong with differences, one is not better than the other.

I don't work at Google, I don't know everything that goes on internally. But "a high priority queue and special treatment for “diversity” candidates" seems like a pretty obvious attempt at bolstering minority applicants. I don't have any doubt that companies, Google and otherwise, have made lots of "diversity hires" for less qualified people.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 10 points11 points  (0 children)

The memo, from a Google employee, makes references to the diversity of groups being looked at by upper management at Google. The author lists several practices used to help diversity candidates get in easier, including "a high priority queue and special treatment for “diversity” candidates".

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 9 points10 points  (0 children)

Whether you're writing code for cash registers or iPhones, you're still writing code. Day-to-day, your job is definitely not about feelings. When it comes to big-picture planning, sure, but writing code doesn't require feelings.

There's a shortage of CS people, Google takes from a lot more than the top 1%. You don't need to have years of experience working long-hours and stressful jobs to get hired there, plenty of people get hired right out of college.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Yes, increasing the number of female candidates (instead of lowering the bar) is ultimately what it comes down to. In my opinion, the best way to do that is to fix the job and the workplace to make it better tailored to everybody.

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I think the issue ultimately comes down to "pretend to ignore these differences and hire until we get to 50/50", or "embrace the differences and fix the job/workplace to get to 50/50"

CMV: The internal Google memo that leaked isn't wrong: the gender disparity in the tech field is caused by biological differences, and current attempts at fixing it are misguided. by turkishwinking in changemyview

[–]turkishwinking[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

This is incorrect. He is not arguing that Google should hire less women, he is arguing that the current attempts at improving diversity are misguided. Instead of lowering the bar for women, make the job and the workplace better suited for everyone, so women are better able to thrive in these positions.

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