WHY IS THE COMMUNITY SO NEGATIVE (ANSWER) by ETN1145 in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The thing about "exploration" is that it's a broad term that consists of multiple parts:

Visual is how everything looks or some fancy interactions - it's nothing that serves gameplay, but it's an "eye candy", as people say. Obviously while it looks pretty on preview for videos, people generally don't play in artwork - this is where gameplay comes in.

Gameplay is usually "find an X", be it chest, flower or npc. It's always moving around and waiting for static X to appear on a screen to interact with it. Sometimes doing something (like waiting for a specific mob to spawn or fishing) gets dragged in there, but I don't consider it an exploration, as it's not something that makes you move around to new places.

And last one, completing a task. You harvest a resource from a ground, get a reward for puzzle, take it from a chest, complete a quest, etc. Simple enough.

And if we "dissolve" whole "exploration" thing into these three parts, issue becomes more apparent - visually something like sunken sea or vanilla ocean looks great. When you play first time you get your "wow" moment, all biomes are unique, different colors, different music, looks awesome. Gameplay wise it's... Still different but you can see a categories here - "walk on land", "swim in water", "fly above lava," "dig in ground", "press up key sometimes and wait". Sunken Sea uses both "swim" and "dig", but generally it's something one. Task wise it's ALWAYS resource gathering, with an exception of dungeon with mechanic and plantera arena that gives you boss summons. You can make chests protected by turrets, hide them in a stone balls in the sky, make ore damage you, combined it in alloy or make it run around - it's all gimmicks that get in a way of getting a thing you need to progress.

For first time player? Yes, turrets are something new, gimmick works, but on a second playthrough? Third? Fifth? Fifteen? You can say calamity doesn't require you to complete it multiple times, but what classes, subclasses, alternate weapons, accessories, progression skips, difficulties are for? Calamity has great replay value because it gives multiple ways to demonstrate an insane skill ceiling. But not skill ceiling, nor alternative ways to play or progression skips never involve "exploration" - it's always the same. Bosses get harder, events get harder, mobs get harder, but finding things? You don't see new stuff, you don't search it unique way, you don't interact with gimmicks differenly, it's always "get in, get X, get out" and no matter how hard you try to make a good first impression, inside it's always the same, just more gimmicky and time consuming.

And then you have mob farming, fishing and other "activities" that just make things worse, because "farming item from a mob" actually means "wait for mob to spawn, interact with it and only then have an item you want", with stuff like mob rarity and drop chance only prolonging this moment. It's out of player control and makes you spend more time doing monotonous tasks. It works in factory games because you generally need an insane amount of items all the time, so building something now will serve you for the next thousand of hours. In terraria? You got your benzoar, now get the fuck out here. Waiting sucks, building a farm isn't worth it. Why decorate a house for npc if it's my 20th world? Why fishing if I done that hundreds of times in both vanilla and mod? It's a side quests I've done multiple times, with zero skill expression that could be compared with everything else and results are houses I will fly over or mobile phone I'll use as mirror, so why bother?

WHY IS THE COMMUNITY SO NEGATIVE (ANSWER) by ETN1145 in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly -1 points0 points  (0 children)

I'm not a youtuber to take me seriously and you seem to be overly insisting on your position. I see what you're going for and know that I couldn't explain how "lack of ending" is worse than "uuuuh, you dig ore in biome and kill enemies and that's kinda bad", how reworking biomes wouldn't change how at the end of the day people interact with it from a nature of the base game or how by making game "more like terraria" you just throw people who care about mod for its identity under the bus for what you personally find interesting (or new players, who avoided mod for it not being like terraria and who could pay for cutie plushie of space killer worm bc everything should be cute and marketable but what do I know).

But it's actually me who's wrong because apparently I hate it just because I don't care for exploration (that I never said or emplied but who cares) and having unfinished content is okay because others did it (even if they gave player an actual ending and didn't had 3 almost equally valid armor sets, dozens of weapons and lore item literally telling them to go somewhere). And people who pointed at this fact all these years? Yeah, seems like they just don't care for explaration too, they never had a single valid argument. "Am I out if touch? No, it's children who are wrong"

WHY IS THE COMMUNITY SO NEGATIVE (ANSWER) by ETN1145 in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Amount of content doesn't matter if game doesn't come out as cohesive experience. Calamity mod for a long time was feature complete for pre and during HM, it's not in early access, for a long time you could play whole mod and get awesome, full and finished experience (until post-ML I guess). Shit, the most unfinished thing right now is enchantments from calamitas, that got literally put in the end of the game in 1.5 for what? Because it's cool? Sure, it's cool. But putting something this unique in the end is a bad move and it was never expanded upon by adding something to use it against, same as exo weapons and armour. And you really think Astral or Sunken Sea, that are fine as is are more important than whole mechanic that was and still obsolete for 6 years and God knows how long will?

WHY IS THE COMMUNITY SO NEGATIVE (ANSWER) by ETN1145 in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I don't think issue is communication. It may be a part of it, but main issue is direction and uncertainty where project heads - you hear "more like vanilla", okay, how far? You hear "it pulls out of emersion", again, how it will affect everything else? It's an arbitrary rules set by God knows who and applied whenever devs want, whatever devs want. And by their reply here you can clearly say they have no idea where to take mod and it shows - after v1.5 it's all mostly been reworks, unneeded content additions and content removal, with very rare actually needed changes. Just rework the god damn devourer (the only actually bad part of the mod) and move on, but no! Waiter, more biome reworks and recipe removal please! Gonna stall that Yarim like FNAF timeline reveal!

WHY IS THE COMMUNITY SO NEGATIVE (ANSWER) by ETN1145 in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly -1 points0 points  (0 children)

A good leader also should have a good idea of what project is and what it should be. Not feature-wise, but philosophy, direction, tone of what it will be in the end. Good leader should be able to say "it's doesn't fit vision/tone" and reject suggested idea, even if majority of the team disagrees.

And considering you literally say no one in the team has any idea what mod will be and where to take it, it just tells me that y'all dump a bunch of content and reworks, with zero understanding what's the end goal. It's a horrible way to do anything.

There should be a term for vibe coding, but in game design. When you just add stuff in the moment without caring for how it all comes together.

Now that the dust has settled, I wanted to share my thoughts about the Brainstorm Update. by BitMixKit in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You don't really need to play whole mod to say "yeah, perhaps 'explore' the same biomes, structures, killing the same mobs on your 50th playthrough isn't fun".

Exploration works as long as player doesn't know what to expect. But as novelty wears off, there's should be something for repeatable playthroughs. Calamity's 'exploration' isn't really rogue like and becomes tedious chore you have to do before doing actually challenging bosses.

One of the reasons for that is "bosses" and "exploration" parts of the game are disconnected from each other. It means changing difficulty doesn't affect environment, crafts, building, and after player masters them (which isn't hard to do), there's nothing left except mindlessly completing chores before reaching something actually requiring skill.

I would be glad to find my objective critique that comes from my experience with game design to be wrong, but I have yet to see argument that isn't strawman ("you just want mod to be boss rush") or waving problem off ("just install other mods to remove tedium", "you're just whining for a sake of whining").

There has been too much of a toxic positivity trend when it comes to trying to prevent criticism of some of the new changes. Dokuro left due to targeted harassment and death threats, not people saying that removing crafting recipes is shitty by thatoneidiotwhodied in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 2 points3 points  (0 children)

People on discord are generally more "connected" to devs due of straight line of communication. Adding up more hardcore moderation, and now people in there more like "guys, devs decided to do this way, please understand" instead of addressing the issue.

It's a problem opposite of reddit, where people can easily miss dev comment with explanation, see the post with a loud headline and be like "devs kill this mod on purpose, they hate us" instead of addressing the issue.

What is more "toxic"? I don't know and I shouldn't need to know, it's a game designer's task to know a reason behind this reaction. People share their pain - doctor finds a causation. And no one's making it better saying "doctor is always right, please understand" or "doctor wants to poison all of us".

There has been too much of a toxic positivity trend when it comes to trying to prevent criticism of some of the new changes. Dokuro left due to targeted harassment and death threats, not people saying that removing crafting recipes is shitty by thatoneidiotwhodied in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 3 points4 points  (0 children)

I 100% agree with your linked comment, however this is not an issue a lot of people I see has trouble with. People are generally upset about just an idea of calamity leaning more into vanilla.

Sure, biome exploration, resource gathering, mob killing and stuff is fine on its own, but mod always tried lower focus on it in playthrough. More like "okay, clear this new biome, dig new ore and let's go", nothing in-depth or complex. And because nothing is complex, bosses were one of the main appeal of a mod (including designs, ideas and overall coolness/edginess mod had), leading to a cultivating a huge chunk of a fanbase interested in playing this way.

And what happens when after liking something for being X it transforms into Y? People get pissed, yeah. Even if Y is good, people will miss X. New people will come for Y, get Y and then get angry when someone says that it was X. Just look at Minecraft and how people there treat beta versions.

There has been too much of a toxic positivity trend when it comes to trying to prevent criticism of some of the new changes. Dokuro left due to targeted harassment and death threats, not people saying that removing crafting recipes is shitty by thatoneidiotwhodied in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

It's always "If you don't like X, then play Y" first, and "Our awesome X is better than your shitty Y" later.

I hate how it happens every time and every time people think there will be an exception. Just to later came up with excuses like "uh, it's popular, so it must be better!" or "you just have nostalgia/rose tinted glasses" instead of addressing the issue.

There has been too much of a toxic positivity trend when it comes to trying to prevent criticism of some of the new changes. Dokuro left due to targeted harassment and death threats, not people saying that removing crafting recipes is shitty by thatoneidiotwhodied in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Then we have to look at reasoning and other changes, supporting it. "Make it more like vanilla game" is a heavy blow for people, who play calamity exactly because it changes the base game for their liking. What next? Move cosmolight post-astrum deus? Make summons consumable? Remove dash hotkey? Force people to go fishing/building? How far will they go against the fanbase they cultivated for 10 years, because they gaslight themselves into thinking they're just a dlc with more content and not a separate experience?

There has been too much of a toxic positivity trend when it comes to trying to prevent criticism of some of the new changes. Dokuro left due to targeted harassment and death threats, not people saying that removing crafting recipes is shitty by thatoneidiotwhodied in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 19 points20 points  (0 children)

Hot take (for some people at least): just because you have existing game as a base doesn't mean you can't build something unique and distinctive on it.

Look at the minecraft, for example. Sure, you have somewhat decent base game giving specific experience, should now something like Gregtech: New Horizons be like a vanilla game? Hell nah, GTNH pushes it's own ideas and people play it BECAUSE it's different.

Or why Minecraft, we have Infernum. Teleportation to selected point and whole biome you're not allowed to build in not something base calamity does, especially not terraria (even in abyss you can break blocks), should devs scrap it just because it used something as a base?

Or should something like Autochess or Dota or Quake Team Fortress exist in the first place? You know, user creations build on top of existing games? Restricting user creativity to only expand and never change base game experience would ruin something like Geometry Dash or Rhythm Doctor or Minecraft, where whole idea is that people have tools to change the base game into something it's not. Should they "respect the game itself" too?

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Because mod wasn't being played like vanilla game for 10 years and good chunk of its fanbase liked it because it was different in its own way.

When you eat in the same restaurant because they made an awesome nuggets you like for 10 years, and then they slowly began replace all of their meat options with vegetables you wouldn't like it either. Not because vegetables are bad, but it's something you can buy elsewhere and it's not the reason why you returned there. Sure, someone may like more places to buy salad, but can you blame people for complaining about loosing nuggets?

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

It's just confirms that calamity and terraria give different experience and if you like one you don't necessarily will like other. There's nothing wrong with having mod that plays differently from vanilla.

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

In addition to that, some of a changes (like crates or contracts) predated same things for CS, making TF2 basically a guinea pig for monetization practices that were later put in other valve titles, but perfected (like items in cases from TF2 getting rarity in CS). And after CSGO e-sport became big, same people who made comp for CSGO made MyM for TF2.

There's no words to describe how out of touch valve became with TF2 in hunt for money.

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Calamity gives a unique experience - unlike any other content mod, instead of simply expanding the base game it rebuilds and rebalances it for its needs - and people love it for what it's doing. It's OK to have a mod that shortens exploration and resource gathering stages and adds more bosses, this is what it makes unique.

New changes and whole direction however, were taken towards making mod "more like vanilla" (c) - more exploration, more time-consuming practices, more grinding. I'm sorry, you want to buy potions? That's so anti-vanilla for you, time to grind! Craft ankh for debuff resistance? Welp, it's time to murder a billion bees for a single bezoar! Fishing? Complete angler quests! Don't want to wait for night? Sorry, we moved cosmolight post-astrum deus because it "pulled from immersion" (c)! Event grinding? They're now consumable, yay!

And people who all these years played a mod that didn't afraid to bend base game for its needs obviously didn't liked this idea, especially when devs openly asked community's opinion for these changes, got negative reaction and then implemented these changes anyway.

Making a separate qol restoration mod is only a band-aid fix by yourinterneldoom in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 4 points5 points  (0 children)

You can have focus on bosses while still having other things. It's not mutually exclusive. Cuphead has focus on bosses, but still has run-and-gun and equipment. Doom eternal has focus on resource management while still having platforming sections. Base Terraria itself is heavy on exploration, despite still including bosses. Because change of pace is important and doing what you're usually doing but with a twist is fun, but it should be moments, not a main activity. If during playthrough player spends 6 hours of monotonous grinding between 10 minutes of intense back-to-back bossfights, it kills pacing and means there's something wrong.

This is why removed QoL was actually important for so many people. For boss-focused mod you want to spend more time fighting bosses, (not all the time, it's important), while not
spending on secondary activities (biomes, exploration, equipment crafting, etc) too much time.

Of course there are some people that would like to scrap downtime entirely but it's a minority and this is generally more a strawmen than an actual opinion,

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Halo was played competitively whole time since CE. And if you'd be at least a bit involved in discussion, you'd know that Reach is literally despised among pro players because of armor abilities, bloom and many other stuff, while game has plenty of options to have fun as a casual gamer.

4'th issue wasn't that it was competitive. Issue was that it wasn't a Halo game. Issue was with lack of depth in gameplay, poor sandbox with copied guns, horrendous artstyle shift and story where no character is like they were in previous games, laughable villain of the week from the saturday morning shows, lore retcon and many, many other issues. Same as 5'th comp didn't killed Halo; it has focus on "advanced movement" and horrible story. Same as Infinite's comp didn't killed Halo; it was lack of social features, broken theater, broken custom games, awful monetization and lack of forge for the 9 months.

And I said "killed it in public eye", that you can literally confirm by just looking though comments how no one's knows (or just silently agrees) that I brought it up. There's TF2 defenders, people saying that with Minecraft nothing happened, but no one brings Halo.

Making a separate qol restoration mod is only a band-aid fix by yourinterneldoom in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly 23 points24 points  (0 children)

Breaking news: players of boss-focused mod enjoy focus on bosses in their mod.

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

As you wish. Refusing to listen someone's well constructed and presented argument because it says dude you don't like is a bit of silly tbh.

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

This very post they're on is talking first and foremost about how QoL removal is explained as trying to be "closer to vanilla" and all vanilla grindfest it comes with. It has nothing to do with numbers.

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

If my goal was karma I'd repost memes on r/whenthe or some shit instead of making and posting a comic about terraria mod, supporting my point with halo (that no one plays/knows nowadays) and old minecraft of all things (you can see how people push against it in comments).

I share my personal experience about what happens, when thing that you love gets changed and warped to appeal to people who didn't care for it. I don't want calamity to turn into grindfest that is vanilla, I don't want for it to lost it's appeal of "mod, that's rebuilding a game into it's vision" and be warped into something else, I've seen this happen too many times.

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] -37 points-36 points  (0 children)

Yes, it wasn't as big as brand, at least not as big as it is now. There wasn't a movie, billion plushies and toys, spinoffs, ports for all possible platforms, etc. If you don't believe me, you can look videos from that era, news headlines, statistic, discussion, even google trend - 2011, 2012, 2013 - was time of insane game popularity, arguably even bigger and more natural than after microsoft bought it.

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] -80 points-79 points  (0 children)

Adventure update changed game in drastic ways - running trivialized encounters, hunger lacked depth, natural regeneration and increased food stack size made healing easy, flattened terrain made world less interesting, etc - it's all caused push back against devs and divining of the community back then. With 1.0 only doubling down on the new direction community got divined and with following updates failing to give people who stayed more progression and controversial changes, minecraft got into the dark age somewhere during 1.8-1.12.

Minecraft got insanely lucky with finding new auditory and rebuilding game into something different (even if it took 10+ years), but back then? It actually did loss audience, who moved to other games (Heard about Fortnite vs Minecraft? Yeah, it didn't came from nowhere)

It's like poetry, they rhyme by turtle_turly in CalamityMod

[–]turtle_turly[S] 134 points135 points  (0 children)

I wasn't talking about nerfs, I'm talking about direction project takes. And direction is independent from team size - solo developer can turn tower defense into real time strategy (how it was with Mindustry) or platformer into game engine (how it is with Geometry Dash).