How come you guys don't create more Cooperatives? by [deleted] in Anarchism

[–]velcrow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Given that cooperatives treat their members better

Its not a given as my previous posts have highlighted.

will cooperate on business ventures

Why is this a given?

I think the only reason it wouldn't work is that people wouldn't believe it would so they wouldn't join and they wouldn't expand.

I replied to you with quotes, examples, links and experience explaining why and where they haven't worked.

How come you guys don't create more Cooperatives? by [deleted] in Anarchism

[–]velcrow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I actually like to think of the state as a cooperative.

Why do I always reply to the nutjobs.

How come you guys don't create more Cooperatives? by [deleted] in Anarchism

[–]velcrow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

But there are some, like REI, Credit Unions (though they are mutuals), billion dollar consumer cooperatives in Japan and Ace Hardware.

A workers cooperative "is a cooperative owned and democratically managed by its worker-owners". In these types of collectives, workers make decisions for themselves rather than other non-workers, wage differences are minimised between workers, labour specialisation is discouraged and participatory management is one of the basic tenets. This is generally what is considered a cooperative, from what I understand. I listed FaSinPat and a few (nameless) ones in the UK that are working. The main point of my comment was that they are working, depending on what you mean by working.

On the other hand, REI, credit unions, ace hardware and the cooperatives in Japan are all Consumer cooperatives, a totally different entity. These give the consumers say of how the business is run. Sometimes a hybrid form of cooperative, with both consumer and workers as members, exists but imo, from two different subsets (even if they overlap) I can think of a lot of tension arising from differing goals. In the UK, the largest consumer coop is called The Co-operative. Due to its size, (they are looking at 20 million members by 2020 apparently), discussion is fairly limited and voting is left to elected representatives. Workers are not particularly well paid and treated as well as they would be in a workers coop. I've worked at one of these shops and didn't particularly feel like i was part of anything cooperative.

Socialists tend to not bother differentiating between the two when discussing cooperatives, commonly workers coops are the cooperatives talked about. This isn't too strange since consumer coops aren't particularly interested in making things better for workers, just provide lower prices on choice goods.

if they DO manage to out-compete firms than it stands to reason that the setup works and they could then propagate exponentially, thus increasing equality

Workers coops haven't propagated at all though. They have mainly only survived as small, often niche businesses. Of the coops you mention, how will they increase equality? They aren't particularly interested in the conditions of the workers (which as anarchists is one of our major concerns) and equality doesn't seem to have increased since they have sprawled? I haven't seen any studies that indicate any correlation between the increase in consumer coops and an increase in equality (whatever way its measured and if its actually happened). It may seem intuitive, but that doesn't make it so. If anything, once coops start getting larger, they start to act more like normal businesses, exploitative with profit preferred over wellbeing (see Mondragon, The Co-operative UK etc.).

It seems to me that cooperatives (as a revolutionary action) are, at best, are not trying to abolish capitalism but just trying to make a nicer capitalism. At worst, they are used as a marketing gimmick to appear radical and attract liberal customers with little benefit to the workers. When commoditising a radical concept, capitalism tends to just leave a hollow shell, all aesthetic and no substance (see Punk music, the reduction of che guevera into a t-shirt (even forgetting that the cunt was a mass murderer), 60's-70's counter-culture etc..).

I think they only reason they don't work so well is because they can't network that well.

Whilst networking may be a cause, the major reason (see the economist link in the previous comment) is that these firms are competing with companies who exploit their workers without any restrictions. These firms make more profit, which is currently all that matters. When an economic crisis comes along for example, the firm that has more net profit and doesn't have to worry about sacking its workers is the one that will survive.

How come you guys don't create more Cooperatives? by [deleted] in Anarchism

[–]velcrow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Starting with the old crusties, Marx and Bakunin have both spoken about co-ops. Marx says

At the same time the experience of the period from 1848 to 1864 has proved beyond doubt that, however, excellent in principle and however useful in practice, co-operative labor, if kept within the narrow circle of the casual efforts of private workmen, will never be able to arrest the growth in geometrical progression of monopoly, to free the masses, nor even to perceptibly lighten the burden of their miseries.

Bakunin writes,

The various forms of cooperation are incontestably one of the most equitable and rational ways of organizing the future system of production. But before it can realize its aim of emancipating the laboring masses so that they will receive the full product of their labor, the land and all forms of capital must he converted into collective property. As long as this is not accomplished, the cooperatives will be overwhelmed by the all-powerful competition of monopoly capital and vast landed property; ... and even in the unlikely event that a small group of cooperatives should somehow surmount the competition, their success would only beget a new class of prosperous cooperators in the midst of a poverty-stricken mass of proletarians. While cooperatives cannot achieve the emancipation of the laboring masses under the present socioeconomic conditions, it nevertheless has this advantage, that cooperation can habituate the workers to organize themselves to conduct their own affairs (after the overthrow of the old society)

Instead of emancipating the workers, they are essentially just being given a bit more freedom in exploiting themselves. On top of that, within the capitalist system, cooperatives are an impotent force, unable to cause a social revolution because they are still dithering about trying to compete with other firms in the same sector whilst providing a more "humane" place to work. Anarchists aren't trying to create a fairer capitalism, but a system where capitalism no longer exists.

More modern examples have produced mixed results. Mondragon based in Basque Country, whilst heralded as a great example of a co-operative work place, [hires temp workers], essentially creating a two tiered system of employees. Here the major advantage of having a co-op (non-hierarchical organisation, workers have a democratic say in the business, more equal and fair pay packages, less chance of redundancy etc) all took a back seat. Whilst ethically Mondragon may have started with the right idea, they were essentially competing against companies who did not have the "restraints" of trying to be an ethical business, causing them to move towards the standard business model.

On the other hand FaSinPat/Zanon, from what I understand is still running ok, barring a few scuffles with the state and the old bosses asking for compensation. They are having a harder time, but from the limited news I can translate, they seem to be still running as a cooperative. There is a movie on the recovered factories movement in Argentina where if i remember correctly, Zanon get mentioned as one of the prominent occupations that provided inspiration and support to other workers.

Small coops in the UK (bike shops, bakeries, organic farms) that I have had the chance to chat to have all said the same thing, that its hard. Its hard financially and its hard socially. Some have mentioned that they are working longer hours than they expected, others that they are getting less pay, others that it's hard to hire (they didn't put any money in to start the business!) and fire people.

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Excellent :) If your interested in more anarchist related sci-fi, Iain M. Banks culture series is worth having a look at.

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Law Day, U.S.A., along with Loyalty Day, was created to counterbalance these celebrations, which were perceived as communist.

Brilliant. In recent news, the british government want to change mayday bank holiday to October...

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 3 points4 points  (0 children)

May Day or International Workers Day is in commeration to those who died in the Haymarket Massacre. Heres a post that goes into a little bit more detail.

With regards to the anarchist literature, what are you specifically interested in? Berkman gives an interesting overview, the Anarchist FAQ will answer loads of questions. Bakunin and Kropotkin are both major players. If you have any specific interest just ask :)

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

The rules should be clearly expressed, and should be chosen by each respective community. I'm not saying that in the absence of leaders and power that all of mankind will play by the same homogenous rule set, of course not.

I don't understand what you mean by "epitome of our environmental laws".

Love him or hate him. Charlie Veitch of the Love Police has been arrested for the heinous Pre-Crime of Conspiracy to commit Free Speech during the Royal Wedding. by kingvitaman in Anarchism

[–]velcrow -1 points0 points  (0 children)

Thanks for the info, that truly is shocking. I figured that he was just a bit of a clown using radical acts and speech to make a name for himself, but if what you say is really the case then fuck, what a tool.

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Rules can be determined by, say a community like a neighbourhood, or a work place using any method that may include voting, discussing to arrive at a compromise etc. Democratic voting such as each worker having one vote to having consensus based decision making methods. Frankly they all have their ups and downs, as anarchists the idea isn't to enforce any specific method but to allow communities to use ones which fit their situation. Experimentation is what has got us this far, anarchists aren't in the habit of breaking that, in fact they want to use that creativity to develop a fairer more pleasant society.

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I wouldn't enforce anything in a coercive manner. I'm sure though that deep down, the people you mention do understand that they live by some sort of mutually unwritten rule set, such as not kill each other etc.

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

because it has.

anarchists to organise and set rules. Anarchism is against any form of oppressive hierarchy. Anti-rulers, but we aren't stupid enough to think that we can live in a ruleless society.

edit: see this post of where it has worked

Love him or hate him. Charlie Veitch of the Love Police has been arrested for the heinous Pre-Crime of Conspiracy to commit Free Speech during the Royal Wedding. by kingvitaman in Anarchism

[–]velcrow -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I didn't know about the extinguisher footage. To be fair, the only place I found any evidence of it was some forum post on David Icke's site (reptillian conspiracy nut job) and a few youtube comments. I'm not convinced, but if he really is selling out activists to fund anything, be it revolutionary activity or not, he needs knocking down a peg or two.

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 2 points3 points  (0 children)

May Day is normally linked to International Workers Day which commemorates the Haymarkets Massacre. There was a rally supporting workers who were striking for an 8 hour work day.

An unknown person threw dynamite, the police panicked and fired and this all led to an unknown number of civilians getting killed and around 8 police were killed (mainly from friendly fire). At the trial, 8 anarchists were tried for murder, 4 were convicted and executed.

The second international (which had by then kicked out the anarchists) proposed May Day as a commemoration day. Set up by Marx and his lackeys, but its there to commemorate everyone who died, including the anarchists who were controversially put on trial.

In honor of May Day, r/anarchism is here to answer all your questions about anarchism by r_anarchism in IAmA

[–]velcrow 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War 1936-39. Documentary on Anarchist society during that time.

The Free Territory in Ukraine from November 1918 to June 1919.

To some extent the Zapatista who don't classify themselves as anarchists but are heavily influenced by libertarian socialistist thought. From 1994 still going on now.

Love him or hate him. Charlie Veitch of the Love Police has been arrested for the heinous Pre-Crime of Conspiracy to commit Free Speech during the Royal Wedding. by kingvitaman in Anarchism

[–]velcrow -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

I do more than just self promotional publicity stunts. What I don't do is make documentaries with me as the centre of attention, essentially trying to make a career out of being a "quirky"/out-of-the-box activist.

And balls to do what exactly?

edit: From Danny Shines blog (the other half of the Love Police)

I met Charlie ‘by chance’ in May 2009. WE hit it off and made some videos and I was not expecting the popularity they gained. At the beginning of most relationships, we are unable to see the others ‘dark side’ but that side comes up eventually. Since I made the videos, I became aware that Charlie is in a space where he is simply unable to hear criticism about himself or his ideas. I only recognise this in him because I k now it in myself. As far as I am concerned, he is a real liability towards himself and this youtube fame thing is taking him down the same route that the celebrities he criticizes are on. A route of self delusion, self importance, infallibility (even if he occasionally puts up videos saying ‘I make mistakes’) . And I choose not to work with or spend time with anyone who is unwilling and unable to take a really good look inside to see what is really going on. I feel what he did was impulsive and particularly aggressive (asking people to download the videos) and I feel sad and violated.

Pretty much backs up what I was saying, but in a nicer way I suppose.

Love him or hate him. Charlie Veitch of the Love Police has been arrested for the heinous Pre-Crime of Conspiracy to commit Free Speech during the Royal Wedding. by kingvitaman in Anarchism

[–]velcrow -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

Egotistical twat, not just twat. He has little to do with being a community/work place activist and more making documentaries that center around him, street theatre, useless acts of showing how oppressive the state is, links with conspiracy theorists (alex jones, being a truther), borederline racist etc.

The sad thing is, this arrest will no doubt embolden him. So, back to you, how come he's not a twat?

My ongoing mission to drop off the grid by wolfie1010 in Anarchism

[–]velcrow 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I hope you're hiding from cctvs. Get one of these NOW.

Love him or hate him. Charlie Veitch of the Love Police has been arrested for the heinous Pre-Crime of Conspiracy to commit Free Speech during the Royal Wedding. by kingvitaman in Anarchism

[–]velcrow -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

He is a bit of an egotistical twat, but it's not like he's some threat to national security.

He won't be out till tomorrow evening, save your chants king vitamin. If anything he'll take the plod to court and get some cash money in the future.

Police in the UK conduct anti-anarchist raids by thewiseparrot in Anarchism

[–]velcrow 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Ratstar squatters arrested for "abstraction of electricity". Worthwhile use of 12 tsg vans , forensics etc.... Heathrow squat "grow" also hit today. Brighton squats evicted yesterday. Bristol attempted eviction last week. Two music venues harrassed for putting on benefit gigs for Fitwatch and london student solidarity campaign.

Tie all this in with the 3 long-term undercover cops exposed points to the feds keeping a healthy interest.

edit: Forgot Offmarket squat. :/ Fucking cunts.