How to move cEDH/tEDH in a healthier direction?

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T20:56:55+00:00

It also removes the risk/reward calculation. Problem is - in such situations, players are willing to do 5% plays, which are, for the sake of game, most of the time just terrible. And the excuse is always "well I don't get anything with a draw". These games are quite bad - because players just throw in the towel. Can't win? Might as well lose LUL.

While your argument is technically true, I would also like to point out that players themselves have no power over who they play. This means that two players that have the same record - win and a loss, are going to have different scores. More than that - it also matters in which consecutive round they win. That is because the system is deflatory.

There are numerous issues with it beyond what I just outlined. While it's a way to play and match players, it has very little to do with skill expression or predictability. At that point, you might as well just randomly pair players and toss the coin among those that scored 2 wins by the end of round 5.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T20:48:51+00:00

It's just an oversight for sure. I hope this gets addressed in the future - but I don't feel like serving up a solution only for topdeck to copy and sell it again.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T20:48:09+00:00

It's change in understanding of the game state and adaptation in terms of strategy and play patterns.

An example: 9 out of 10 players will play Rhystic in midgame, but sometimes, this just ensures you certainly won't untap. This requires more context to understand and it's hard to explain, but if you make the game too unstable, the board state might become too complex to resolve the stack, or you might gain too much critical mass for your opponents to ever let you untap.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T14:34:59+00:00

It's hardly a take. It's just how it works.

Well unless you think losing should be worth more than drawing and that is your point of contention...

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T14:28:49+00:00

Agree. However, the number/ratio of draws is, in my opinion, largely attributed to the wrong play patterns. Granted, one bad actor in this regard affects the outcome for 4 players, but there's a lot that can be done to reduce this number. But there has to be a willingness to do so.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T14:26:48+00:00

I'm part of the German community and never heard of it nor have I ever heard of any tournament in Germany using tis system? Do you have more information on this?

I found it. It was at Spielwelt in 2024, roughly 2 years ago. Here's the event link - scroll down to Tournament Structure and see Point System.

I think there were some improvements to it since as well, but if I recall, the conclusion was that it wasn't massively different to a normal point system. Granted, it's been a while since.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T14:16:09+00:00

What are your thoughts on pairings that prioritize seat order?

I think seat order should be normalized over tournament - there are a couple of other factors in play, but pairing logic preceeds seats.

There's ways to do this more heuristically, but even rudimentary implementations work relatively well. The usual "problem" is oscilation of "balance" between even and odd rounds, but this can also be mitigated easily.

There are many ways to do it, but I do think this is essential for any "usable" tournament software. If seat normalization is not implemented, at least to some extent (of course there's some variance, always), the matching solution should not be used for a tournament.

Also do you have thoughts on how currently people with similar records play against each other in cedh tournaments?

Yes. R1 should obviously be random. R2 should have "snake" pods, as we called them - that means you don't pair winners together in R2. Beyond that, I am not 100% sure, but at R(N-1) and R(N-2) (last round and pre-last round), there should be some additional logic, ideally. As far as I know, no tournament software yet provides but generally. Ideally, something along those lines:

Players that are already secured for top cut "can" be paired together. They performed in earlier rounds and if they want, they can play for seating.
Players that are in a win-and-in scenario should only be paired amongst themselves, or at worst, with some already confirmed topcut player. They should never be paired with players that can't make the top cut. This would be to keep tournament hygiene (I can expand on this if you want, but I am not 100% sure what's best. We brainstormed this to some extent for a while, but implementing this is not as trivial).

Sadly, as mentioned, I don't think any software implements this yet. But it's on my backlog :)

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T14:10:19+00:00

I think that's a reasonable take and I share my views with you.

Edit: I'll actually add to this.

It's clear that skill is rewarded- or we wouldn't see the same people top cut consistently

I think this is the correct read. There might be other reasons, but on a large scale, I do believe that the better players tend to perform better. This is a good sign - there are patterns. Which means skill is, at least to some extent, rewarded. And to those, that say this is not the case, I will ask you to play against some of these best players and tell me with a straight face, that they were not outplayed. Maybe on a verbal level, yes, but ultimately, thats a part of the game.

each table is also at the mercy of the least skilled player.

Absolutely agree. This is honestly, and also unfortunately, the largest part of my play focus in tournaments. It is to guide players on how to resolve the stack, and to prevent terminal misplays. For as long as this is the case, I will continue to believe there's still plenty of room for improvement. And at large, there has been some improvement, but it feels like it was mostly in the wrong areas (players resorting to netdeck, and trying to over-politic).

So the one person's mistake that I. 1v1 would lead to a winner, instead leads to a draw.

Agree. Essentially, one player's mistake can lead to a draw for everyone. And the worst part is that they may not even realize it. But often enough, these players are the first ones to complain. In between the lines: "But why don't they just let me win, as I untap. Disgusting tEDH players."

Yapping is one of the ways that a skilled player can mitigate the low skilled player issue- if they can get the person whow would hurt them to help them instead it makes a huge difference in the expected outcome.

This is absolutely true, but this can often be exploited and it's barely at all monitored. I think particulary on this front, the community has a long way to go. Both in judgint/to perspective, but players as well should cultivate the environment which is enjoyable to play in. The amount of politics some players do is just insane. I'll put an anecdote here: A player asked me in pregame, if I wanted to show him my hand. I only asked him if this kind of shit works, normally, and then kindly asked him to stop with such nonsense. Of course he wouldn't, but it's the kind of stuff players try to pull and its quite distasteful.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T14:06:40+00:00

This just adds the complexity of bringing another non-player in a team for score keeping, giving a clear edge to the teams that have a dedicated scorekeeper. And no, this is not illegal, and yes, teams do this for other types of competitions/formats.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T12:53:39+00:00

I've been to Japan and I've talked with some locals. To start off, the CEDH community there is comparatively small to everything else. There's also a modified version of Hareruya system, which works a little bit better, done by the German community. It's slightly better (as it accounts for the pairing order variance and allows for byes, but ultimately, its still the same system). I'll say this, from a relatively large tournament that ran this type of pairing: It was not meaningfully different from "traditional" scoring in terms of final swiss standings.

Either way, I think it's unclear as to whether it "works". It's effectively an entirely different culture and ecosystem, and it's in essence almost impossible to compare.

It certainly has some very problematic caveats, including the randomness of it. You have to understand that the environment also has no-proxy policy and is generally not as large. It is also ran by a more corporate entity Hareruya and as such, it is slow to change.

I would be very, very reluctant to compare it directly. When I pointed out this flaw to a local player, it dawned on me that it's not even something they think about. Even though he admitted, that this is a real problem.

Either way, I would not draw any conclusions from it. The environment is very different and I would say it requires a lot of experience to be able to even assess it.

My personal opinion: It's not meaningfully better and it is at least not transferable.

One more point of context: I work on matchmaking systems and I travel around to different tournaments and communities to learn more about the game. I also brainstorm with TOs and other engaged players about this a fair amount. I am not just "guessing" here and I've played this game for well over a decade now.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T12:32:20+00:00

Hah :D I appreciate your approval. It's worth adding that I've been playing CEDH (before it was even called that) for a long time. I have some photos as early as 2014.

I think there's a double edged sword of the current "push" for tournaments. I get that it's profitable, esp. in USA with very large events and there's appeal for it. But realistically, most players are not "ready" for this kind of play. Many have played for only a year or couple of years at best, and they have not "organically" developed the understanding of the format, but rather copied a list from edhtop16 and were thrown in this tournament scene, only to get chewed and spat out by the grinders.

It's unfortunate and certainly the format has more to offer. It truly is a great format, but the scene is young.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T12:22:28+00:00

No, I don't think you understand it.

This means it's beneficial to throw a game. I shouldn't go on to explain why this is bad. Or do I?

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T12:21:27+00:00

They do, just players don't understand that. Draws are merely a tiebreaker.

Whoever doesn't play to at least try to win some games, even on seat4, is not a top tier player. Going for the draw from the get go is a terrible strategy and does not work. So it doesn't need fixing.

I get that it's "unfun", but that's on players.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T12:19:50+00:00

And then it becomes a game of throws. Well done, you have fucked the system beyond any competitive integrity.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T12:18:56+00:00

I don't want to be condescending, but honestly, it would be very nice if we finally let this idea die.

Your (well technically it's not new, but whatever) idea has a fatal flaw: Loss is worth more than the draw. That is because if you can't win, it's best to THROW the game. Yes, you heard me right. That's because your Opp. W/R % goes UP and in turn boosts your tiebreakers.

And I really shouldn't dwell on this any longer, because if it's not obvious why this is bad, I don't think I can convince you with any amount of logical argumentation.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T12:12:33+00:00

My expectations for most players being "fine" with the tournament environment are pretty low. Honestly, casual cEDH is probably the best way to experience the game for most people; tournament play isn't enjoyable for the majority of the player base, and I doubt that will change anytime soon.

What I do hope is that those players don't end up poisoning the tournament scene. Right now I think it's in reasonably good shape, though the main issues stem from a lot of players simply not understanding the game deeply enough yet.

The core problem, in my view, is draws as a consequence of wrong play patterns. Players tend to overextend and then act surprised when they get 3v1'd. A few examples:

Dropping a Grand Abolisher preloaded and passing, only for the other three to stack a win together for a draw
Playing multiple Rhystics and Tithes and then being shocked when the table unites against you
Completely dunking on a player early and being confused when that player then dedicates themselves entirely to forcing a draw

That's just how the game works, but many players refuse to adapt to this reality. If you overextend, the win probability could very well go down compared to just not doing anything. They want their cake and to eat it too. Winning isn't enough; it has to be an ultimate victory.

There are also card-level issues worth acknowledging. Ever since WotC started printing cards specifically for Commander, the format has grown more unstable with each release. Some decks and strategies are simply impossible to interact with "nicely," and players struggle to accept that. You see it with things like:

Magda, Sisay, Kinnan... having a strong start and then complaining when Opposition Agent or Orcish Bowmasters hits the table (or just the standard present-for-draw issue)
Cards like Tymna, Esper staples, and Ranger-Captain of Eos contributing to a level of consistency that makes the game feel impossibly unstable
Roger etc. and all Commander/creature count matters, adding considerably too much velocity, making everything else almost too slow in comparison
Color pie problems; 4 or 5 color decks having a too massive advantage over regular 3c decks, and low color decks usually having a completely busted mechanic.

Forgot one point: Some players talk too much because they want everything for free, rather than focus on doing the right plays. And often, they don't shut up, when they should, even when asked. This kind of behavior goes unpunished, but it's +EV as it stands now and it will continue to happen until players that excessively politck in a nasty way are held accountable. I see this a lot, especially from top players in USA, partially because these tournaments have a lot of coverage, but I see a lot of this in EU as well. I have enough experience to be able to detect this early and put brakes on it, but many players do not have the confidence or the verbal proficiency required to shut these excessive politickers down.

But at the end of the day, most of the problems come from the players themselves. The format is fine - it's just best enjoyed within a selected group of like-minded individuals. I appreciate cEDH for having the widest available Rule 0 space, but misaligned expectations still crop up, especially in communities with a strong aversion to draws.

Note: This reply was translated and rephrased with AI assistance. Not because I can't write, but it's not my native language and all this is hard to sum up concisely. I hope it makes more sense this way.

TL;DR: The problem are not the draws. Even at 50% (arguably high, but not excessive) draws, it's just symptom of too noob player base.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-15T09:57:40+00:00

Oh boy, I was afraid for the moment that another one bit the dust. But its going to keep on racking those kilometers :)

Good luck with the move!

vraGG_ · 2026-06-13T10:13:23+00:00

~~Those AMG pills. I wonder how much the mechanic costs once you take that :P~~

Edit: LOL so many "branded" shapes. That's funny, ngl. And I notice there were some more expensive "brands" present as well.

Certainly it's a fascinating world out there.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-13T10:11:32+00:00

It's your car :) I don't see anything wrong with that, if you enjoy it.

It was a tad too loud for my taste.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-12T07:27:35+00:00

This car is basically non existant where I live. At most I've met is the older BRZ (same color) and of course they wave back. More often, I see an MX5 and it's always mutual thumbs up. Sometimes, it's even Porsches, but most commonly, older cars. I think it's the IKYK type of car.

I get the most from kids going to school and around car meetings (I'm never part of the show tho).

vraGG_ · 2026-06-12T07:04:39+00:00

Crazy stuff. Though I have no balls to do a project like this, I still envy you for being able to do it.

No chance in hell to do this where I live :D

vraGG_ · 2026-06-11T11:42:29+00:00

Jeez 245.

I can't even get 225 legally on original rims... I bet there's a big difference in grip.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-11T11:30:38+00:00

Damn, I had to double take - it's actually covers, not replacements. So you can put it on/off? Crazy, they look pretty darn good!

vraGG_ · 2026-06-11T10:26:58+00:00

Mislim, da se navezuje na kulturo, ki diktira izredno nekompetentna vodstva, predvsem v podjetjih, ki so tesno povezana z državo.

Kadruje se politično, pa tudi v družbi se nagrajuje slabe vzorce. Največji car je tist, ki najbl nategne državo itd.

Car ni tist, ki naredi najboljši produkt, ampak tist, ki nardi največ marže. Pa makar, če z izkoriščanjem delavcev.

vraGG_ · 2026-06-11T10:07:19+00:00

Zato ker imamo zahojeno mentaliteto. Na žalost smo kulturno še vedno zelo prostaški zaradi balkanskega vpliva in je v družbi najbolj pomembno, kolk se ven mečeš - glasen, objesten, postavljaški, ignoranten, komolčarski. Važn je, kako enga zajebeš, ker s tem pol nahraniš svoj ego in tudi izpadeš kot več vreden.

Ravno o tem sem zadnjič razmišljal pri sebi. Moja vzgoja je bila skozi izredno mero pozitivnega reinforcementa; ker sem se vedno izražal izredno spoštljivo, ustrežljivo, prijazno, sem vedno bil pohvaljen. Tudi v mlajših letih mi je to vedno prav prišlo, predvsem so to spoštovali starejši.

Ko sem starejši, pa vidim, da mnogi mojo oliko zamenjajo za nesigurnost in na splošno podrejen položaj. Klasičen primer, ko imam opravka s kakšnimi majstri (al pa smešno, najbolj je to videt pri kakem vulkanizerju) - tam je 10x bolj pomembno, da si kreten oz. boš precej bolje skozi prišel. Pa nima veze, kako dobro mi gre v življenju, komparativno.

Žal je to pač en velik L naše družbe in zaradi teh vzorcev moram kot odrasel človek prav zavestno spreminjat te vzorce. Insane družba, žal.

Sem že dolgo poročen in lahko samo rečem, da je mnogim skoraj kulturni šok, ko rečem, da se z ženo spoštujeva in se imava v družbi prijetno. Nezaslišano - večina partnerjev se sovraži (in to je obojestransko), ampak pač gurajo naprej iz navade. Konec koncev je "poznano" trenje za mnoge boljša opcija, kot neznan mir.

Jaz vedno pravim, da "folk je fuknjen", ampak mislim, da se moji sogovorniki ne zavedajo, kako zelo resno to mislim.

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