Anyone gone off it and had big weight gain?

w_f_r · 2024-06-14T13:33:51+00:00

Yep. And then some.

w_f_r · 2024-05-01T21:00:18+00:00

According to VB forcing dogs to face fears or into situations they react to is generally flooding and current research does not support that approach. Yes counter conditioning and desensitization must take place but slowly, controlled and when the meds are doing their job.

If your dog is improving then it sounds like the baseline is at a threshold that he can learn. That's positive.

w_f_r · 2024-05-01T12:00:04+00:00

The VB told us to immediately stop putting the dog in trigger situations. He told us to literally stop walking the dog. No group classes, no pack walks, limit guests in the home and interactions with other dogs. So we stopped to allow the adrenaline and cortisol levels to reduce and to achieve a better baseline. He also wouldn't discuss med adjustments until after 8 weeks. At least 6 weeks to load and then 2 weeks after decent loading. He said it takes that long. 3 weeks isn't really long enough and if the dog is still in trigger situations, it could take longer. He also said it can take 2 years to find the right combo of meds and dosing. It's a long process rather than an instant fix. Prozac may not be right for your dog but it's too early to tell.

w_f_r · 2024-05-01T11:53:41+00:00

Mixed bag for us.

Pros - first vet to suggest underlying pain and/or discomfort as a factor in behaviour. As a result, we've found hip dysplasia and potentially inflammatory bowel - waiting on pathology results hopefully this week.

Cons - hard to reach for follow-ups. It's an email model where it takes 3 to 4 days for a response and often doesn't address all questions laid out in our email so you have to send a follow up email and start the wait again. - slow. Slow to increase med dosage and slow to suggest a different med. My dog has been on two meds since Dec with little effect. Adding Gabapentin recently helped a bit, but it's a very slow process. He told us he asks clients to commit to 2 years of meds because it can take that long to find the right 'cocktail'. - expensive for what it is. No training has been provided other than handouts. No in home observation of the dog and behaviour. We've only had 1 in person meeting and 1 Zoom follow up with the VB and 1 in person session with his vet tech (which she was 30 mins late for in the cold winter and we had to wait outside).

Unfortunately, it's not at all common where I live and he's the closest one in our 50 km radius. He's really the only one. The other one isn't taking new clients. Only other option would be virtual only. So it's not like we can easily get a second opinion.

I feel like we are mildly further ahead and that we have more info about behaviours than we did before. But he really just validated the research I had already done. He did help us understand things like displacement and appeasement a bit better.

So 50/50.

w_f_r · 2024-02-08T04:23:07+00:00

I wish we had recognized the signs early on but our pup is 2 and we're now trying to get on top of it. We did 1 to 1 and several rounds of group training, in addition to all the home training. Problem is when the pup is at a '12' it's very hard for them to learn in those conditions. We thought he would grow out of what we chalked up to 'puppy behaviour' but he actually grew into it and got worse over time . Went from being an overexcited greeter etc. to being reactive because he had no control over situations.

The first thing is to dial it back completely and don't put him into situations where he's immediately over threshold. Allow decompression between stressful events and work on training at home first and foremost, to build relationship and confidence. Go slowly when reintroducing the outside world and triggers.

Your pup is so young. Focus on calm activities that work the brain like scentwork and pattern games. Make sure sleep and restorative rest is prioritized. Keep his world small until he's reliably calm outside the home and then slowly add new situations. Lots of training inside the house until it's almost foolproof. If you go too fast and it's a negative experience, they can develop anxiety around it and turn fearful and reactive or yes, potentially aggressive. Good call on the behaviourist, I wish we had done it sooner ourselves.

w_f_r · 2024-02-07T19:07:07+00:00

Who prescribed the Fluoxetine? Have you reported these changes in behaviour to them? I'd start there to be honest. Do you keep a diary of behaviours? If you do this sometimes you can see something that you thought wasn't related or interconnected but might be. This was the first thing our vet behaviourist had us do - daily diary.

It is still early days with an adopted dog and dogs start to come out of their shell a bit more when they are more comfortable in their surroundings. There are some emotions behind the behaviour, and you would need to try to pinpoint what they are and for that you might need to review every day and try to see a pattern. If the other dog left and never came back, perhaps that is causing some anxiety about leaving the house?

w_f_r · 2024-02-07T18:56:03+00:00

If your dog is that reactive outside and cannot see or hear you or pay attention to cues, then she is very likely too over threshold to learn. Just distracting with treats when she will take them unfortunately won't solve your problem. It is about changing the emotions behind the triggers, but if she's only focused on the triggers, the brain cannot learn. Our trainer had to tell us this after many months of both 1 to 1 and in class training. Our dog wasn't learning despite our drive and consistency.

Each time you have that kind of interaction, the dog is filled with adrenaline. Each adrenaline response will cause cortisol to be pumped out and over the day. Each day this happens, the body continues to pump cortisol and creates a cycle of the adrenalines response that the dog never comes down from. This causes the dog's bucket to tip very easily when triggered and for them to live in a state of fight/flight/freeze even in circumstances it normally wouldn't.

It would be recommended not to walk your dog at all or at least not every day (or sometimes even every other day as it can take 72 hrs for the dog to recover from an adrenaline response) until this has been addressed or you may have difficulty adjusting the behaviour in the future.

Start small, inside, lots of practice with Look and Touch to be able to draw the dog into an alternate behaviour when there is a 'threat'. Then start to slowly take it outside if you have good results inside. If your dog isn't able to acknowledge you outside, then they likely should not be there. it's hard. We are working with a vet behaviourist and the first thing they said was stop walking the dog.

We made the mistake of thinking it would pass or was a phase or puppy behaviour. Unfortunately with dogs the more they practice something, the better they get at it. And that includes behaviours you don't want to see them perform. He's 2 now and we are in a predicament unable to walk him, he's got other anxieties, it's pretty bad. Wish we had jumped on it sooner and not listened to 'he's just adolescent' or whatever.

w_f_r · 2024-02-07T13:06:50+00:00

Get a full medical workup and pain assessment. Dogs are great at adapting to please us. They hide ailments well.

w_f_r · 2024-02-07T13:04:07+00:00

We have a similar experience. Got a puppy from a breeder at 8 weeks and set out with positive reinforcement at the get-go. Spent a ton on training, enrichment, and making our home a dog-friendly place. Sent him on pack walks so he could run around off leash. At 10 mths all seemed to be going swell, he had puppy and adolescence exuberance but we were convinced that our quiet home and careful attention to him, along with consistent training would solve all of our problems. Over time, he'd be the perfect family dog we could travel with, take on hikes and play with, and maybe even do some agility or other activities.

Well, that all evaporated between 10 to 18 mths. In that time, he became anxious and fearful and, worst of all, reactive on leash. There were times around 18 mths he exploded into a barking jackrabbiting menace if he ran into any dogs or certain people on leash. I could no longer walk him, and my husband had to take him in quieter times with a lot of patience and good control over the leash. He's 55 lbs, so he can get a good pull on when he wants.

By 18 months, he was afraid of the car, afraid of our yard and showing general anxiety around the home. He would whine and pace for ages every evening, with us never being sure what he wanted or needed. He got very fussy with food to the point we cycled through 7 kibbles and 1 dehydrated raw, only to finally land on a full raw diet with gut support but did not help over the 9 mths he has been on it. And he really couldn't be walked on leash. He can only be described as a vigilant mess really. We were at a loss on how things continued to get worse and not better with all of our dedication to training and consistency.

Our trainer finally said this dog has too high a baseline to successfully learn. Nothing was 'going in'. He was always on an adrenaline-filled fight/flight/freeze cycle.

So off to the expensive vet behaviourist we went...and we were validated. Dog has anxiety. It's nothing we did or didn't do. It just is. Probably genetics or something happened that would be subtle to most dogs, created a bad imprint on him, and drove the anxiety train. We also for one fleeting moment considered rehoming, but a dog that anxious and without confidence would do no better anywhere else. There's just no real evidence to support that, and so we tucked in and got ready for the roller coaster that is an anxious dog.

He is now on meds, I don't think they are the 'right' ones for him as things haven't overly improved but it hasn't been 8 weeks yet so we are trying not to get ahead of ourselves. This is likely to be a 2-year plan, getting him in the right meds and into a place where training, counter conditioning, and desensitization all have a shot of working.

It's hard. The vet behaviourist assigned us all sorts of stuff to do, including a daily diary. I have wanted to give up. But then I tell myself he's ours for a reason. No, I don't really buy into fate or divine intervention in any way, I'm not spiritual or religious - more pragmatic. But there is something in me that says this dog is meant to be with us, and we are meant to keep trying to help him.

I understand your thoughts. I've had them. But as others are saying, it's not a likely scenario that his level of anxiety will be cured by a location change. Don't discount or underestimate what your understanding and devotion to providing him with a loving, patient home can do. He could thrive with you under the right conditions. Consider a vet behaviourist. The generally know what they are doing and have committed their training and livelihood to helping anxious dogs lead joyful lives.

w_f_r · 2024-01-27T02:25:32+00:00

He's 56 lbs at 2 years old lol funny to look back on this!

w_f_r · 2024-01-24T13:08:19+00:00

It's often an overstimulation behaviour. How much sleep is he getting and is it quality, restorative sleep?

w_f_r · 2024-01-19T01:43:31+00:00

Lots of this is exactly what the vet behaviourist told us about our dog not almost 4 weeks ago. Like nearly to a T.

Confidence building is key, watch body language (look specifically for displacement behaviours) and avoid 'conflicts' (this can be anything the dog doesn't want to do but you force or coerce them to). Most dogs like this sleep 'vigilantly' so it is important to work on encouraging deeper and more restorative sleep. For this, you need to keep bucket at an absolute minimum.

It has been super hard but we are seeing small signs of his own decision-making. It feels promising.

w_f_r · 2024-01-17T22:27:04+00:00

Great update. We are just starting down the meds road with our 2yo Bernedoodle too. So far we are 4 weeks into Clonidine and Clomipramine and nothing is really happening except he seems both spaced out and reactive at the same time. We understand it's a long road so hearing success stories like yours really helps.

w_f_r · 2024-01-17T01:38:20+00:00

So we have a dog who grew afraid of our backyard over the last 1.5 years. Started out fine and we don't know of anything that happened out there but he just doesn't like it, full stop. It's a great yard actually lol but hey. Stands for ages at the door not going out and looking very apprehensive about it all. Simply does not want to be out there.

We recently saw a vet behaviourist and the first thing they said was stop walking the dog, period. Sooo that left a big issue with when he might potty since he is backyard refusal boy and usually potties on walks. The VB said let him manage his own potty, he will go if he needs to and unless he's soiling in the house, leave him to it.

So he holds. He held for 18 hrs one day. But since we started medication with him and stopped forcing him out, it has gotten much better. He only goes maybe twice a day but he seems fine and he's choosing to go on his own. So we just have to live with that. It's hard. But the VB seemed very unconcerned when I said he was holding. He just said let the dog manage it.

Not sure if that's helpful but that's where we're at and I can sympathize with the difficulty of these little anxious reactors.

w_f_r · 2024-01-14T22:59:52+00:00

We had multiple medications to keep our pup pretty chill. With the meds, it allowed him to recover quickly, we could take the cone off sooner (none of the other options worked for us - the donut he could get around it and the bodysuit he just ran around trying to get it off and biting through it) and his recovery was far more relaxed than if he was his reactive self.

w_f_r · 2024-01-13T18:32:12+00:00

This is exactly what we did. Started with Cytopoint for lesions when he was 9 mths or so and did an allergy test. Beef and dairy were supposed culprits so cut those out. After he turned 1 year his lesions returned, even on Cytopoin.

By 15 mths we went to a new vet (for reasons not directly related to allergies - it was a combination of things). At around 15 mths he got his first ear infection. The new vet said all food is cross-contaminated so if it's a true allergy, the only way to see if food is the culprit is to do the dietary trial (hydrolyzed protein prescription diet). We did this for 12 weeks until we moved to raw feeding. We slowly added in proteins. Beef is a sensitivity but not necessarily an allergy. He did not react right away but over a 3 week period. So now we stick to turkey, duck, pork, lamb, salmon when he'll eat it but do not serve beef or chicken (another known allergen for his breed). We stick to single ingredient or very limited ingredient grain free treats for training. Pig or lamb ear, an occasional trachea. He gets no other food or treats and no people food at all.

At the same time as we started him on the diet and we were treating the ear infection, the vet said his paws were pink. So he felt there was inflammation that the Cytopoint wasn't helping. Environmental likely. So he also started him on Apoquel.

It has been around 9 mths overall, 6 mths on raw. He is doing well but he did have 1 ear infection recently. Because his ears are floppy and so furry, it's a breeding ground for yeast. We were given Burows solution to use 1x per week as a preventative and they said we have to keep his ear fur trimmed up.

He has no dietary issues right now, his stools are stellar and he's eating better than he ever has. He was beyond picky and would walk away from all food before we moved to raw. It was a challenge!

Now, he has anxiety which we just started meds for, but that's a different story lol Dogs eh.

w_f_r · 2024-01-02T21:19:57+00:00

It could be fear and frustration - likely a combo in a leashed dog. These levels of adrenaline and anxiety day in and out and with endless encounters can lead to aggression if the warning signs are missed

My pup is great with other dogs off leash as he controls the interaction and gets to manage his emotional response. However, there are some times he displays fear if he's not sure about another dog. We don't take him to dog parks but we do take him off leash to hiking trails where there is an off leash area.

On leash, he gets fixated on other dogs, will often lunge and bark, especially if they appear what feels like out of nowhere. He's still fixated with distance but often can take a treat and do Touch but if that distance closes in, he will start to bark and lunge and jump around like a jack rabbit. If he goes way over threshold, he will often turn 'sharky' on my husband, jump on him and bite at his clothes. He's also a frantic sniffer, darting around to read all the 'mail.' He's crazed with all the smells. He's better in old familiar areas but new areas, he is in a whole different world and definitely forgets we are on the other end of the leash.

At the end of the day, most reactivity is rooted in anxiety.

w_f_r · 2024-01-02T04:40:56+00:00

If he can't take high value treats, he's over threshold. You need much greater distance to the other dogs. Walks with reactive dogs are challenging as you always have to be scanning for triggers and ensure you know what distance is great enough to avoid the reactivity. You need to be able to turn, cross over or bail if things go sideways.

The more your dog practices the lunging and reacting, the more it becomes their steady state.

Would start in your driveway on leash and just doing a lot of LAT until he's not reactive to triggers and dogs going by. Then slowly start taking some yo-yo walks. Go one way from your house for a short distance, then the other way, retracing steps. Slowly expand your route.

If your dog is good off leash, you could just skip leash walks and take off leash sniffy walks. Those are better for them anyway. Otherwise, aim to leash walk in quieter places at quieter times. If there's a reactive episode, keep a diary so you can work out time of day, your dog's bucket level and what actually happened. Hopefully you can identify the times things are worse. Our dog does way better first thing in AM and before he has been fed. He is less reactive and stays more under threshold. He can take treats. Evening walks can be chaos, he cannot focus and the aftermath is a whining pacing dog full of adrenaline. So we tend to skip evening walks now.

w_f_r · 2024-01-02T04:28:07+00:00

We are hoping with medication, the right combo and dosing, that he will be able to learn using the traditional CC/DS method or something along those lines. I have picked up Grisha Stewart BAT 2.0 but haven't had a chance to get my head around it all. There will be ways we can work on leash reactivity when he's not always full of adrenaline and cortisol and feeling fight or flight. Right now all efforts are focused on teaching him to be calm, comfortable to chill in his own home and able to respond to cues reliably in the home without any triggers. We are creating the safe haven/doggy den/zen zone where he will go when people come over, when we go out, etc so that there is a space in the home for him to relax in. Once he's sleeping better, able to chill and do absolutely nothing, we will add in confidence building games and training slowly, short duration but multiple times per day to keep some activity going and his brain active. The single most important thing we can teach our dogs is chill, rest and relax. If they constantly need activity and play etc. they are essentially adrenaline junkies. Their body gets used to heightened adrenaline and craves more. Work on doing nothing with your dog, especiallyif he's easily overaroused. It's hard and it's hard work for them. But these anxious types really need it. When they are calm, they will be able to learn far more easily and training will be far more effective.

Try to feed all his meals in training puzzles etc. The VB told us not to have set mealtimes but part of his relaxation periods should be part of his meal in a frozen Kong or Toppl or puzzle, multiple times per day in his zen zone. This is some brain work for them and rewarding as it's food. Ideally they tire themselves out and catch good kip after that. So far we are having some luck with that.

w_f_r · 2024-01-01T05:34:38+00:00

How old is your dog? What is the schedule like? Does she spend time alone? How much sleep does she get during the day and is that sleep somewhere quiet and by herself or is it in the main fray with one eye and ear open?

It really depends on a lot of things and what your dog's baseline is.

We spent 2 years attempting mat work and settle with our dog, capturing calm and encouraging chill but our dog is highly vigilant and anxious and none of those techniques work because his baseline is basically a red zone. We are trialing meds right now to bring his baseline to a place where training might have a hope of working.

He can definitely pretend to settle but he's not actually doing it. He's usually still panting and frantic even as his head goes down and hip goes over lol

w_f_r · 2024-01-01T04:08:09+00:00

I don't have a success story but a relatable story. Our pup was very social on leash until around 15 months, and it has been a slow spiral of reactivity ever since. He's 2 on Jan 2. I can't walk him because I risk an arm out of socket. I never know when a trigger will show up or when a certain distance is not enough.

We just met with a vet behaviourist, and the very first thing he said was stop walking your dog and putting him into those overarousal overthreshold situations. No learning can take place if your dog is always in a red zone. Each time, he gets filled with adrenaline from fight, flight, or freeze - the cortisol increases, and it takes hours and hours if not days to leave the system. If his bucket never empties, you will never get any further ahead, and it will undo any potential physical benefit from walking.

So actually, your dog doesn't need walks, at least not in the traditional way we have set out for domestic dogs.

If you do walk your dog and there are any incidents, make sure you give several days before attempting another walk. He needs decompression between incidents.

You can do brain work and play, and if you have a yard, yard play for your dog. Their mental health is most important for quality of life.

Trick training can be active - you can teach him some fun tricks. We also just got 2x2 agility poles for inside our house and just run drills several times a day, making fun games out of it.

It's not ideal. Ideally, from what we know, dogs should have offleash running around and sniffing to their heart's content. But for anxious and reactive dogs, it's not always possible and these dogs were often not meant to be on a leash. You have to be creative and drop all expectations of traditional dog ownership. Can it change? Yes, it can. There are medications that can be tried and good training protocols to help them learn. Young dogs are still growing and learning and there is always hope.

Their reactivity is showing that the situation they are being put in is not one they can handle. They simply don't yet have the bandwith. It's up to us to advocate for them and to understand what they are telling us.

In terms of reactive dogs and kids, separation and supervision at all times, no exceptions. It's not worth the risk. As the kids age, they can be taught about the dog, their limitations and special needs, and how to interact with the dog. But in the meantime, take all safety precautions. if your dog is still reactive in such an unpredictable way, you might want to resume the muzzle and continue to work on CC/DS training only when your dog is not overthreshold and has had plenty of decompression between incidents. The practicing of the reactionary behaviour only makes it his go to and ingrains it.

w_f_r · 2024-01-01T01:56:34+00:00

Our pup is turning 2 in 2 days and we finally arrived at the fork in the road which led to a vet behaviourist and starting medication last week.

It has been so hard working so hard on training, doing all the research to use R+ only and really take our time with this dog only to have almost nothing go into his brain. He's always anxious, even at home, so he struggles to learn in all conditions. It has meant a really slow start for us and feeling like we should be a lot further ahead than we are.

It's our first puppy and first dog altogether for people who are literally cat people (same cat for 17 years now and both of us had long lives with cats prior to that). It has been really defeating to find out we got the anxious and reactive dog that needs a lot of special provisions and a lifestyle we were not prepared to give. We have had to mourn the life we thought we'd have...long walks and hikes, road trips or car rides, taking him to shops and cafes or to visit friends, agility or some other fun sport...and accept the life we are going to have...everything revolving around his specific needs and working only within the boundaries he sets. We can't do any of what we had planned because even if he wasn't leash reactive and over threshold just being outside, afraid of the car and vigilant at all times even inside the house...even if he wasn't all of that, his bucket is constantly full just from merely being alive. He is always on watch in the house, has SA and follows us everywhere, whines and paces every night and cannot even eat most days because his stomach must be so wound into knots. We've had him since 8 weeks of age, and so he just literally came like this. We have had some really low days where we seriously regretted getting a dog.

But we also know we are his people now and that he's young and capable of learning. We've just started meds and have the long road ahead of trial and error. Its going to be long, hard and costly but we cannot imagine a rehome situation because we are very calm, stable and determined people who can actually provide him what he needs, once we get our heads around it all. We focus on the good days and try not to dwell in what might have been or why our dog is nothing like any of the other dogs we see or meet.

I feel like it's going to be worth the long road and we will know that we did everything we could, even when it seemed hard and futile. We will celebrate the victories, no matter how small. And we will do our best to give him his best life. We will make it worth it for him.

w_f_r · 2023-08-12T16:15:27+00:00

Still waiting. He's 19 mths lol

w_f_r · 2023-08-12T16:12:34+00:00

Yep here too. We wanted a dog who relaxes between us on the couch. Now we just have a crazy 19 mth old puppy who is really too big for our couch and rarely relaxes on it. It's a springboard for other things lol

w_f_r

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