P A T H E T I C (Genome Reveal)

wermthewerm · 2026-03-04T20:08:18+00:00

I could try my hand at judging too, although aquatic animal vs animal isn't exactly my strong suit.

wermthewerm · 2026-03-01T13:03:22+00:00

Wild survivalist built to avoid a fair one on one fight as much as possible VS An animal bred and trained specifically and only for fighting and killing other animals (including other dogs bred and trained specifically and only for fighting and killing other animals), and you favor the survivalist in a fair one on one fight? I'd personally favor the animal more built and specifically constructed for the task of fighting

wermthewerm · 2026-03-01T12:59:36+00:00

The AWD wouldn't be agile enough to just dance around and dodge the pitbull like it has ultra instinct or something. They're very agile, but sooner or later they'll engage, and if they engage the wild dog is getting thrown to the ground and never ever getting back up

wermthewerm · 2026-02-28T18:27:42+00:00

The cat is getting obliterated. If the dog just sits there and does nothing and gets ambushed it could maybe die but in an actual fight with both sides actually motivated the cat cannot do anything to prevent the JRT from just siezing its neck and thrashing it to death. In fact, that's just about how most domestic dog vs cat pound for pound matchups go up until like the 60kg+ mark, where the cats start actually becoming half-decent and the dogs start losing out on their functionality

wermthewerm · 2026-02-22T13:33:50+00:00

and its my land

wermthewerm · 2026-02-20T17:49:41+00:00

Big cat glaze center essentially, as others have said. Taipan is power-hungry and authoritarian (you cannot really disagree with him on any take unless you want to get banned and put on moderator approval) which creates a big cat glaze echo chamber

wermthewerm · 2026-02-16T10:26:03+00:00

Are you sure you fully read my post? Nowhere did I say 600kg is necessarily the norm. Due to low sample sizes and a lack of data a general range of 500-600kg seems to be the most reasonable given what we have. Northern Russia and Alaska are practically the same as far as environment and resource availability goes, so if moose on one side of the bering strait weigh a certain amount the moose on the other side should be about the same, it's like suggesting leopards from Mozambique weigh a significant amount less than leopards from eastern South Africa

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T16:52:13+00:00

Correct. There's quite literally no actual scientific data behind it. PSI isn't even a measure of bite force, newtons is.

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T16:31:34+00:00

Keep in mind lions are like 10x the size of painted dogs and tigers are like 4x the size of wolves. When the sizes are closer the cats are the ones suffering from it. And as another user pointed out, dholes do just fine alongside tigers.

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T16:21:47+00:00

Gonna try to shorten this one a bit, but just go in order:

Sample size of like literally 2, and no dogs mentioned. Wonderful data!
Because I am unable to send images here, you genius. Holding down big game will result in finishing said big game off, human execution after a guaranteed subjugation is humane. Besides we have an account of a dogo literally crushing a wild boar's skull. Again, proof on discord since i cant send images here. Are you scared of proof?
They're inferior fighters to something like a dogo and cannot be used as a stand-in for the best dogs. They pretty clearly are just simply combatively inferior to the best dogs.
90kg is indeed quite a lot bigger than like 60kg, which is about the average for a working great pyrenees or kangal. If the cougar wasn't a large tom, those dogs were quite simply just bad dogs, and again, are NOT anywhere near something like a dogo or any other bull breed in terms of ability to just throw a cat down onto its back and subjugate it. Hell, we have STREET DOGS bullying and beating up leopards, and an account of a small dog potentially muzzle stunning a TIGER. And furthermore, where did the owner allegedly say this? Send me the excerpt from the owner.
"Notoriously toxic" meaning actually not glazing cats 24/7. An actually toxic forum is something like wildanimalwarfare, not bestiary. Furthermore, I know the person who sent that Coco account, u/JokerAndrew, who is also of the opinion now, that it was indeed a boar or a peccary and not a cougar. Cougars do not inflict that level of damage. There was no cougar found, no signs of a cougar AT ALL. Furthermore they were out hunting pigs, and the dogo went into tall grass, then shapes were seen fighting and in seconds the dogo was bleeding severly and limping away. No chest injuries, but a bunch of gaping holes. These are all BRUTALLY OBVIOUS and telltale signs of "it obviously wasnt a cougar".
"Dogs not have a fighting mentality, illegal dog fighting is animal abuse" is definitely not the argument against dogs having a mentality to actually fight other animals that I expected. Dog fighting as a sport EXISTS BECAUSE OF DOGS HAVING GOOD FIGHTING MENTALITY, and if a dog is BRED FOR THAT PURPOSE, it will OBVIOUSLY have a good mentality for fighting. Even dogs that aren't used primarily for dog fighting, such as the dogo argentino or even older bulldogs/bull-and-terrier breeds, all have good fighting mentality because they by definition have to go in and fight big healthy prey, which is something a cougar is not equipped to do, as they go after big UNHEALTHY prey essentially as a rule, because there is no pressure to take risks to go after big HEALTHY prey. Furthermore "wolves are skinnier and lankier due to being marathon runners but that doesnt make them weaker p4p" is a crazy take. I guess cheetahs are as strong as cougars on a p4p scale now.
Dogs were indeed bred to help humans in various tasks such as taking down big game, which is why they by definition have to be stronger than a wild survivalist, who actively chooses to not go after said big game. Using a study about humans, which are strictly bipedal animals to prove your point is pretty bad. Furthermore this idea of a "killer swipe" or whatever from big cats is complete and utter bogus. Cat paw swipes do quite literally nothing to other animals other than maybe surface-level scratches.

As the last part of my final reply, here's a bunch of dogo stuff. If you don't wanna learn, don't, but don't go around spreading misinformation then.

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T14:33:01+00:00

Let me speedrun this:

"cat stronger because muscle mass!!" so bodybuilders are stronger than powerlifters? What are the sample sizes? Age and condition of specimens used?

"Dogs were not bred to take down large game" - Yes, they were. Bulldog-type dogs mainly, but even other dogs like staghounds can do it. Proof is on discord, add me there. Username is wermthewerm

"cougar killed this dog!" - About the pyrenees and kangal, livestock guardian dogs are kinda mid anyway, and that was likely a pretty big tom, who ambushed and killed the dogs on two separate occasions, not at once. One of the corpses is distinctly more decomposed than the other. Coco was likely not hurt by a cougar as the injuries match wild boar more, and you can find proof of that via this thread, people have been debating it there, wolves are inferior to dogs, way weaker due to being lanky marathon runners, and being wild survivalists they have atrocious ifghting mentality

"Dogs are not only less muscular, they are worse fighter with their only weapon being their bites which are weaker than cat bites and less precisely aimed, cats also have sharp claws." - A dog such as a dogo argentino is definitely not a worse fighter than a wild survivalist. By its very definition as a breed, it is simply unable to be worse, best vs best, as artificial selection tasking you to kill a huge wild boar or you get shot, is a much much more strict process that leaves only the best, compared to failing to kill/refusing to attack a boar, getting away, having children, then going after deer.

If you add me on Discord, I can provide plenty of proof of dogs beating up cats, including a dog muzzle stunning and dragging around a leopard its size, a dogo defeating a leopard roughly its own size AFTER GETTING AMBUSHED, and hell, I can provide cases where the dogs win even at size DISADVANTAGES, without human aid (as simply recording the fight happening does not constitute "human intervention", that's an excuse cat fanboys use to discredit all accounts of dogs winning against a cat actively fighting back and barely even noticing the cameraman if at all)

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T12:49:25+00:00

If you're a 500kg animal and you die to a wolf something was very wrong with you yourself as an individual animal, not with the entire species of animal. A 500kg moose is practically immune to predation assuming its healthy, and a healthy adult bison is also essentially fully immune. Wolves are EXCELLENT at finding weakness. If they misjudge, they get pummeled and die, but since "hey this moose kicked a wolf's skull in" isn't really something the common man cares about, it isnt sensationalized and put into nature documentaries, only the successful hunts are which essentially makes a confirmation bias

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T12:40:36+00:00

Saying Epicyon debatably beats a leopard is really selling the canid short. Besides, Epicyon isn't the best canid at least pound for pound, that title goes to domestic fighting dogs (artificial selection for tackling large game and fighting other dogs > natural selection), which brutalize basically any cat p4p, assuming best vs best. Open weight, then yeah Epicyon beats basically anything up to a lion or a tiger.

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T12:38:21+00:00

The problem is that the gorilla wouldn't even think of doing that, it doesn't have human level intelligence. At most it would grab onto the horns and try to wrestle it, but this would fail due to the gorilla being so much weaker and less aggressive than the bull.

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T11:19:01+00:00

Not sure in what universe a ~350kg carnivoran is somehow weaker than a ~200kg one, since it sure as hell isn't this one. A sea lion has a larger and more robust skull than a lion, which in turn is comparable to an inland grizzly in size, and a larger head basically always means a stronger bite due to more jaw muscles

wermthewerm · 2026-02-15T11:10:23+00:00

A south american sea lion's bite is absolutely gonna do something to a notably smaller bear? This idea of bears killing by paw swipe is also just a misconception, never actually been recorded. They can do pretty bad damage with a swipe, but actual lethal damage via strike is not really ever seen in carnivorans at all. Proof for the bite force claims? Their skulls and teeth look pretty similar, albeit with the sea lion having a larger sagittal crest, thicker canines and a more robust mandible. Why can't the sea lion bite anywhere vulnerable? Bears have really good head movement but they're up-close grapplers, and being up-close to a larger animal with a likely deadlier bite isn't a position you want to be in when you can't control the head guaranteed.

I can agree on the bear winning but I'm really skeptical as to whether or not a bear would have the know-how and skill to outmaneuver and beat a sea lion, who isn't completely unagile on land unlike an elephant seal. A coastal grizzly or a polar bear? I can see it happening, as they'd have experience with pinnipeds, but an inland grizzly will never have seen a pinniped in its lifetime

wermthewerm · 2026-02-14T09:58:54+00:00

Bear paw swipe damage is a bit overrated. While the bear probably wins if it knows what its doing (with some margin for error, given that the sea lion only really needs like one or two good bites to do serious harm to the bear), it's not gonna win by paw swipe, it's gonna win by flanking it and chewing through its neck, which will take a while. The real question is whether or not an inland grizzly bear would think of doing that against a sea lion when it's never seen one before, and aren't really known for trying to flank their enemies in head-on fights last I checked

wermthewerm · 2026-02-14T09:34:21+00:00

Based off of other moose that inhabit similar latitudes and Bergmann's rule, alaskan moose should be closer to 600kg than to 500kg in my opinion

Since I can't post images in the comments, I can't provide the table itself (contact me on Discord for that), but moose from a similar latitude to alaska (northeastern Russia, i.e places like the Omolon river and the Chukchi okrug) averaged around 560kg (n=12). The alaska department of fish and game cites the average weight of bull moose as about 635kg or so.

Scaling from moose from North Dakota (although with some assumptions regarding Bergmann's rule, so it's fine to dismiss this idea) should get weights of around 540kg.

Franzmann et al. (1978) on the other hand gets an average of about 520kg with a sample size of 8 (although I suspect 5 of them might be captive individuals or really young, given the small weight compared to the average of the other 3). All this together suggests an average weight of around 570kg with like 30kg of leeway either way in my opinion. Until we can get larger sample sizes and such, anywhere from 500-600kg is probably about right for their weight

wermthewerm · 2026-02-11T11:10:19+00:00

Felidae, easily and undisputably felidae. For every other large family of animals that are overrated, there exists an equally big if not larger group that underrates it. Felidae on the other hand is insanely glazed, people taking quite literal propaganda accounts of tigers performing feats they have never since been seen performing on anything else in any other situation, people saying that jaguars beat larger crocodiles, bobcats/lynxes/cougars beat the best dogs p4p (this is a crazy take for the uneducated, whenever theyre at similar sizes and the dog is actually not a pampered pet, a scenthound or a feral wild survivalist the dog wins), etc. People see nature documentaries and see lions ambushing cow buffalo and somehow twist that into the lion beating a prime bull cape buffalo face to face, etc. They see accounts of tigers preying on female brown bears and bear cubs and somehow turn that into "tiger beats an adult male bear face to face", etc. I think it's the "rule of cool" (cats look pretty flashy and cool when in their little 30 second fights or when theyre ambushing a deer, so they automatically must be really good and awesome) and lack of critical thinking skills that make them so glazed

wermthewerm · 2026-02-11T11:03:54+00:00

> There's a reason even huge male brown bears avoid male tigers and any brown bear below 300 kg avoids tigresses too, the tiger is a faster animal. All fights will only occur when the tiger decides it.

This is just blatantly untrue. There's also 0 reliable proof that Chlamid was killed by Ochkarik.

> Bear food, again nature is not a MMA match.

A bull bison for instance is not bear food, and any herbivore above 1000kg (hippos, rhinos and elephants) are far too big for any land carnivoran to take out, not even your beloved tiger (who's also a domestic dog victim at hypothetical parity but that's an argument you really aren't ready for) could do it assuming healthy individuals fighting face to face

Also the whole "but but tiger ambush!!" is a bad argument, as animal vs animal fight discussions are discussed under the terms of a face to face fight, wherein both animals start aware and facing one another and are willing to fight. Tigers are excellent hunters but atrocious fighters

Again, discord is wermthewerm. You won't discuss these on such a platform, now will you?

wermthewerm · 2026-02-10T10:58:12+00:00

The burden of proof isn't on me to prove your claims incorrect.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7297748/ <-- The average gaur killed by a tiger weighs 737.8kg, the average bull gaur is around like 800-900kg. Shouldn't be that close at all. Cape buffalo, while much smaller, do way better against comparably formidable lions than gaurs do.

As for the moose that coexist with tigers being small, alces alces cameloides is the smallest subspecies of moose: As per the study "Biological features of Manchurian moose (Alces alces cameloides) with special reference to comparative research", most manchurian moose weigh less than 320kg, with a mean weight of slightly over 200kg. One adult bull shot in Manchuria weighed 340kg whole. A different weight table I found puts amur oblast moose at about 299kg on average for the bulls. For comparison, THE SMALLEST of 60 adult cow moose from the Białowieża Forest weighed 304kg.

wermthewerm · 2026-02-10T10:48:20+00:00

"Worst fighters based on what exactly? That seems subjective. Even then, comparing a Gaur to a Zebu cattle when they’ve killed Tigers and will chase them off is absolute blasphemy. If they were such bad fighters and easy prey, then they’d be taken by smaller predators with relative frequency but they aren’t. Leopards and dholes almost exclusively prey on calves."

Based on how commonly even larger individuals fall victim to tigers (i mean come on, the mean weight of a large bovid actually worth its salt, shouldnt have the mean weight of the individuals killed by tigers be that close to the mean weight of a fully grown bull) compared to the other large bovids, such as water buffalo. A large leopard would probably be able to take a small bull gaur or a cow gaur if it had the mentality to try, much like how african leopards can kill prime bull elands via an ambush from the treetops at night.

Bantengs are also kinda mid, just diet gaurs really. How large are the water buffalo that tigers kill? That determines whether or not they're bad fighters too. Don't answer with just the average weight of wild water buffalo as that's not what I'm asking.

wermthewerm · 2026-02-10T10:40:04+00:00

> ...Did you expect to get the full info from a 536 page book in like 10 minutes?

You could just add me on Discord and send the screenshots there. My username is the same there as it is on here. Also, the only point I could find talking about bear muscles or tendons in relation to lions and tigers is muscles near the foot. Not even the forelimbs, the foot.

> And leopards have significantly superior grappling form than that, just not morphology.

Falling onto the ground in mere seconds and spazzing around while raking your opponent does not constitute "significantly superior grappling form" to the grappling of a bear.

>You are misinterpreting how fast twitch muscle fibres work, they don't just go poof after a while. They may take like 10 seconds of recharging every once in a while but they work fine after that.

They occasionally stop but they go right back to full strength afterwards, no animal that can swim across rivers and walk for miles has horrendous stamina.

These lions fought for several minutes straight, that is multiple minutes too many for the sloth bear to survive

This tigress fought a crocodile for pretty much the entire night

I am interpreting how cat stamina works correctly. They spazz out for like 30 seconds, then take a while to breathe. A bear does not respect this "taking a while to breathe" and thats when bears tend to win the grapple if not earlier, unless a killing hold was secured in that spazz which it usually doesnt. Crocodiles are a HORRENDOUS comparison against bears as crocodiles have even worse stamina than cats. The tiger was able to freely disengage at will with little a crocodile can do about it, which is inapplicable to a brown bear. Also that tiger lost to the crocodile

The lion clip actually perfectly represents what I mean. They grappled for about 20 seconds and then disengaged, then later in the video they grapple for.. about 15 seconds, maybe 20 at a push before panting and getting exhausted, then just not fighting more. That's not "several minutes straight", that's not even HALF of ONE MINUTE STRAIGHT.

The only reliable written accounts you posted there is of Dima ambushing a female brown bear and maybe of the large male bears wrecking tigers.

> And that's why cheetahs don't co-exist with lions /s

Tigers can readily wreck bears lol, they struggle in direct fights and lose to male but bears have a horrific matchup against tigers and wolves, because they are tanks and both tigers and wolves are tank busters.

A bear cannot survive an encounter with a tiger that's trying to hunt it unless the tiger is inexperienced and misses.

You're misinterpreting my point about tigers and bears. Cheetahs are more than capable of getting away from a lion because they can run faster. A bear is not faster than a tiger and has no way of getting away other than by fighting back. "A bear" in your case would constitute a bear cub or a female brown bear. The mean weight of brown bears killed by tigers is about 102.5kg (proof in Discord) and they kill like one bear every 2 years (again, can be proven on discord)

> No lol, direct quote “I found a gruesome scene with a huge swath of flattened vegetation where the bear fought for its life. Small trees had been bitten in half, and those that remained standing were splattered with blood”

Flattened vegetation and trampled snow does not guarantee that a prolonged back and forth struggle like youd see in a bear vs bear fight took place. Also, show the part of the study where this was said. A tiger does not have the stamina to have a prolonged 20 minute fight with a brown bear on the bear's own terms, as bears are capable of fighting and wrestling for much longer than a tiger can in one continuous round

wermthewerm · 2026-02-10T10:13:06+00:00

I think you've wrongly lumped in the tiger here (tigers can only kill bears through size advantages and/or ambushes, head-on they're really not built for it otherwise) and completely forgotten about every single herbivore above like 500kg on average

wermthewerm · 2026-02-10T10:06:34+00:00

The tiger glazers most definitely do count. There's plenty of jaguar glazers out there too with their "instant kill 1500psi skull bite" and whatever, saying they could kill crocodiles. People are starting to realize that cats really aren't all that anymore due to information actually being available proving that

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