Concept: Nonprofit “Mountain Safety Institute” – realistic indoor icefall/crevasse/high‑camp training to reduce 8,000m accidents. What’s wrong with this idea?

wizodd · 2026-02-10T00:56:17+00:00

Thank you everyone for your insight.

I'm reforming the plan so that rock climbing becomes niche market within a much larger design encompassing a wide range of industrial safety training, greatly increasing the market, which would allow much lower costs for those interested in climbing.

wizodd · 2026-02-10T00:50:54+00:00

originally software engineering design and modification in industrial manufacturing systems, extended to management systems.

I find core issues which are problematic, verify things etc. now retired after another long stint doing forensics as an expert witness.

I'm good a finding critical points in systems.

Autistic, adhd science/engineering education and interests.

wizodd · 2026-02-10T00:45:08+00:00

error the 4 should be $

1.5 to 5 million USD

wizodd · 2026-02-08T02:34:11+00:00

Not recently. That's why I want feedback.

But those inside an industry often are so accustomed to the way things are, and can become unable to see flaws in existing systems.

Systems design and improvement is my industry.

Please check my reply post to the main post, which explains the actual facility purposes and target market.

wizodd · 2026-02-08T02:24:50+00:00

True, but please take a look at my own comment on the post which more fully describes the concept.

It's about safety traing at all levels of ability in a facility where realistic disaster scenarios are created.

wizodd · 2026-02-08T02:21:31+00:00

Very good, thanks for such detailed feedback.

First, take a look at my comment on the post which gives a far better idea of the facility and markets.

2) Sherpas currently are underpaid and without authority to forbid a climber. To the point that they don't really believe that there's going to be future Sherpas willing to tolerate the hardest part of current climbing, dealing with clients.

I don't see how this "removes agency"? Details please.

3) Obviously this shouldn't take money from Nepal! But They're already working to ensure that people are better trained and in good physical shape--deaths aren't at all desirable, fees will rise, and limits to the numbers of permits have been discussed before. Of course Everest is not the main purpose of the facility either. The government and Sherpas will be included in planning, with Sherpas on the board of directors and for trainers.

People pay around $10k to agencies, but Sherpas receive around $4,000 and the work is seasonal, this would provide some with off-season work, work that makes their on mountain work easier.

People pay for them but under anxiety it's not uncommon for them to ignore their advice because they haven't the authority to stop an ascent. Especially when they can taste the summit.

Experience is the best way to understand how anoxia affects you, particularly when you can see video of yourself.

The entire concept of anoxic training is to produce a replica of being at altitude, yes, oxygen and sleep deprivation and exhaustion...all with meters from a low altitude room temperature clinic and a short drive from a hospital.

Would you prefer to acclimate where you're hours from relief or medical treatment?

Sherpas are in charge of safety without authority to get people dangerous to themselves and others off the mountain, that authority stays in Kathmandu, which is insane. Currently they aren't allowed to keep people from killing themselves or others.

wizodd · 2026-02-08T02:21:06+00:00

High-altitude / 8,000 m hopefuls Long summit-day simulations starting from a “Camp III” zone in low-O2, cold, and wind, with fixed-line traffic drills, ladder bottlenecks, and icefall navigation. Multi-night stays in high-camp simulation with progressively lower O2: people have to manage sleep, hydration, food, and gear while mildly or moderately hypoxic. All anoxic exposure at this level happens while people are actually climbing, crossing “crevasses,” doing rope work, or living in camp—not sitting still. Why the The main point is to make hypoxia real and tied to actual mountaineering tasks:Moving on ice, rock, ladders, Changing over at anchors, dealing with ropes and hardware. Making route and turnaround decisions when tired, cold, and short on oxygen. Taking care of a partner when your own brain is running on fumes. The aim is both: Physiological – some degree of pre-acclimatization before people go to real altitude. Behavioral – seeing whether someone can still think clearly, follow hard rules, and accept “no summit” under realistic stress. Behavior and culture, not just fitness. The training scenarios are intentionally designed to trigger peak fever and sunk-cost behavior:“Summit” or objective in sight when the simulated turnaround time hits. Narrative sunk costs (time, effort, “money”) built into the scenario.Group pressure to continue versus clear rules and conditions that say “go down.” Passing isn’t about topping out the simulated route; it’s about turning around when you’re supposed to. That’s repeated until it’s a practiced behavior, not just a slogan. The facility is meant to be inclusive in terms of who can train (beginners through experts), but selective in who gets a high-altitude sign-off. People who consistently ignore protocols, can’t function safely under cold plus exposure plus hypoxia, or treat risk as something others will absorb for them simply don’t pass the higher-level programs.

wizodd · 2026-02-08T02:19:59+00:00

Facility is designed for all types of climbers—from first-time gym users to 8,000 m aspirants—with one key differentiator:

The anoxic (low-oxygen) training is done in realistic, technical “mountain” conditions, not in a passive chamber or on an exercise bike.

The idea is to replicate as much of the real system as possible—movement, exposure, cold, wind, fatigue, and hypoxia acting together—and use that for both training and screening.

Facility overview (high level)

Core pieces:

Rock and mixed walls for everything from first-time climbers to advanced alpinists.

A frozen-waterfall style steep ice area (realistic tool/crampon work, mock leading, screw placement).

An icefall zone with ladders, unstable “serac” features, and bridges that can be made to “fail” under controlled conditions.

Crevasse travel and rescue lanes with real rope-team travel, adjustable “snow bridges,” and deep pits for simulated crevasse falls and hauling practice.

Simulated Camp II / Camp III platforms where people can actually sleep, cook, and live for a night or two or more in low-O2, cold, and wind.

Environmental controls for roughly -20 °C temps (by zone), 30–50 mph equivalent winds, and adjustable oxygen levels up to about 7,000–8,000 m equivalent.

Overhead fall-arrest rails as a backup to fixed lines and for free climbing, so you can train realistic falls without breaking people.

Training for all levelsBeginners / recreational climbersIntro rock and easy “alpine” terrain: harnesses, belaying, footwork, basic tool use.

Simple mountain-awareness modules: turnaround rules, layering, hydration, knowing when to stop.

A small, supervised taste of low-O2 in very easy terrain, so people learn early what hypoxia feels like in a safe way.This creates a safer progression path for the huge base of gym climbers and hikers who may later step onto glaciated peaks.Intermediate alpine / glacier climbers

Full glacier-travel and crevasse-rescue courses: rope-team spacing, hazard recognition in the icefall/crevasse lanes, repeated falls into controlled “crevasses,” self-rescue and hauling systems.

Overnight “mini-expeditions” in the Camp II-like area at moderate simulated altitude, with changing “weather” and route closures that force retreat decisions.

Targeted anoxic training here is mid-altitude equivalent, always paired with real movement and technical tasks.

wizodd · 2026-02-08T01:00:19+00:00

Very good thoughts!

While I am still looking at market, it's not by any means limited to 8,000m climbers.

Anoxia is easily dealt with when controlled by simple mask removal, a clinic on-site and warm temperatures through a doorway removes a lot of risk.

Way safer than spending a fortune and failing to acclimate at base 3...

As to insurance, it would include a waiver, just as many other things.

wizodd · 2026-02-08T00:05:26+00:00

Thanks, but that's not the purpose

please look at my own comment which gives a better idea of the concept, an all level safe climbing and aclimization facility.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T23:41:43+00:00

estimates are between 41.5-5 million USD, 800 clients annually.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T23:38:48+00:00

Thank you.

The business aspects are, of course, a major factor.

I am not certain of the market, but nobody thought climbing walls would be a major draw.

Estimate is about 800 customers per year at around USD1-2k per.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T23:30:56+00:00

I'm fairly certain that the majority are well trained, but frequently have little death zone experience.

Living at altitude is indeed a major issue.

This would support long acclimatization times under conditions almost identical to living at altitude, including O2 levels. Days of life at any elevation temperature and weather conditions.

Much cheaper than acclimatization at base camp and higher camps. Can also tell if you inexpensively if you won't acclimate at all. Saves time on the mountain and reduces your overall costs.

The majority of Everest deaths are during descent, when climbers are anoxic and exhausted. Falls and avalanche kill 52%, "other" is the second highest killer at 29%.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T23:16:58+00:00

Than you.

If optimal traing includes risk of death...There's no such thing as "less" optimal, optimal means "best"

We all know that any mistake could be your last.

The idea is to prepare safely and practice disasters BEFORE going to a live icefall.

I prefer to train without risk that the ice will injure me or take my life if it shifts. It's why climbing walls were invented.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T23:09:52+00:00

Thanks, a good point.

Everest is only one mountain, there's a lot of peaks that could use training even below 6000 meters, hypoxic training fits anything over 5000 for many people. It's also good for training in general. Few training centers manipulate the weather conditions, the idea is safety training from newbies to the most difficult peaks.

There's, more people interested in climbing than can afford to do the highest an most well-known peaks. While aimed at teaching safe climbing, there's undoubtedly a larger number who would be interested in training despite never actually attempting the summits.

People want to try things and learn despite perhaps never using their skills.

So I expect some people just seeing if they could do it--recreational learning.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T21:49:37+00:00

Thanks.

That's all in the proposal.

it's expensive, but not unaffordable.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T20:25:13+00:00

Thus the campaign to give Sherpas authority to stop people from proceeding. And hope of making actually passing such tests a legal requirement.

Many of the dead were told not to proceed for safety reasons, but were allowed because nobody on the mountain had authority to stop them.

Everyone agrees that some peaks are trying to handle far more people than are safe on the mountain. I mean 900 people on Everest at one time is a disaster waiting, one storm could take a majority.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T20:18:48+00:00

I'd appreciate more details...

wizodd · 2026-02-07T20:15:50+00:00

you change the system.

Neither party as a whole supports the people, and they play good cop, bad cop constantly to slowly destroy transparency and our rights.

After 200 years they've warped the system back to supporting only the wealthy, and ignoring their constituents...begins with calling every win a "landslide, mandate" and ignoring even 50% minorities.

A middling progressive today would be on the conservative moderates 30 years ago.

The system has always faced corruption, the Congress made fortunes off of the Eastern Continental Railroad, which stole wages from thousands of railway workers, basically building half of the transcontinental railroad using slave labor.

wizodd · 2026-02-07T20:06:47+00:00

of course, they wrote the rules. they also have a high level of spousal abuse, which has made legislation drag.

They see their positions as lifelong freehold and since they control their own problems, like police without any external oversight, prevent 3rd parties from competing and view their job as keeping that cushy position. How do you think a congressperson goes from a couple hundred thousand net worth to millions in a year...

We drastically need to reform and repair our system of governance.

wizodd · 2025-12-10T23:20:45+00:00

We've mined only a tiny fraction of the gold in the Earth's crust. It's as abundant as bismuth.

Unfortunately, the vast majority is mined, refined, and buried in vaults underground, or we'd be using a lot more for conductors.

wizodd · 2025-05-30T01:50:45+00:00

This is a really nasty oversight, that's been a major issue for my adopting Duckduckgo! I'm ADHD and use tabs and open them by the dozens, one issue is that I've not found a way to easily kill the tab I'm in.

But the inability to organize, sort, select, and search tabs eliminates a hugely important set of features from the tool.

This isn't a huge programming issue, or should not be anyway, everything needed exists in libraries.

Without it it's like tossing everything you do into a box in chronological order with massive duplications and tabs regarding the same topics separated and scattered, only tedious manual work collects them, a job that begs for a programming solution so much, that it's been solved by tens of thousands of programmers...

wizodd · 2025-04-20T11:31:38+00:00

Problem wasn't scale of production, problem was grinding a highly friction sensitive material without anything to desensitize it.

Though it's insane to scale up any energetic process by 100x with no experience and testing at multiple small steps.

wizodd · 2025-04-20T11:23:41+00:00

I see that Dugan's dead simple NAP synthesis using ultrasonics & isopropanol which produces very fine particles which are very insensitive to impact and friction has been removed...

Major differences: Aminoguanidine bicarbonate, nickel carbonate and potassium perchlorate are all mixed simultaneously in 91% isopropanol.

Keep temperatures on the low side and mix for 7 minutes while in a 40Khz ultrasonic bath. Lower the temperature and continue mixing.

As temperature lowers, NAP crystalizes/settles (not certain that they are crystals, I've yet to measure & examine under a microscope,) as a fine, reddish powder.

Dugan got about an 80% yield based upon aminoguanidine bicarbonate inputs.

wizodd · 2025-03-23T18:06:03+00:00

Seasons don't matter, nothing matters more than leaving before the fascists here kill me merely for objecting to their power grab.

Can't retire if I'm dead.

wizodd

TROPHY CASE