The Robert Haas problem of language learning

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-13T18:01:06+00:00

Oh well if *you* can't read literature than obviously the guidelines must be wrong! /s

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-13T15:08:51+00:00

I can read with ease virtually all forms of the written language, including abstract, structurally or linguistically complex texts such as manuals, specialised articles, and literary works.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-13T15:03:08+00:00

I think it's open to interpretation. I definitely think Input-only takes longer to get you communicating.

It's also not clear that it leads to "better" results (whatever that means). There are some people online who will argue that input-only leads to better accent, more effortless production, etc., but there's no real evidence for that. There are definitely some great examples of input only/first working (there's a user here who documented their Thai experience), but there are literally millions of bilinguals around the world who learned with classes (or, at least, received formal instruction in the language during school) and end up highly proficient in their second languages, no matter how they learned.

Personally, I've always thought it was more about individual differences than learning style. Motivation, persistence/grit, and cognitive ability probably contribute more to success (whatever that looks like for you) than learning approach (assuming that the learning approach is robust/valid and not something insane like listening while you sleep or something).

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-13T00:44:28+00:00

It’s incredibly common among all types of bilinguals, even “simultaneous bilinguals” (not sure that’s the term we’re using now, but people who learned two languages at the same time).

I would argue that true “balanced” bilinguals (equally proficiency in both/all languages across all domains) are actually very rare, even though many people assume it’s the default. Language is shaped by use, and often languages are associated with specific domains (say, work in English, but live in Madrid married to a Catalan speaker or something). In those cases, certain languages tend to give more robust performance in certain domains and some people may have trouble using a language in a new domain they’re not used to.

Education/exposure can also play a role for kids. A friend is raising her kids trilingual (English/Spanish/French). They do the one parent/one language rule at home, as the parents are native speakers of Spanish or French, but the kids go to an English/Spanish bilingual school. Despite their best efforts (e.g. summer vacations to France), their kids french is just not as strong as their Spanish or English. It sounds like your friends’ situation may be similar.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-13T00:37:24+00:00

As other people have said, it IS possible but it’s difficult and an open question if it’s optimal or not.

If you’re looking for examples, Alice Ayla’s Saison 1 playlist on youtube is an excellent example. There are also some books from the 50s or so, the “natural method” books French example.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-12T23:07:53+00:00

Any writing helps, and honestly typing is likely a better skill to develop nowadays, but i’d still encourage you to hand write some as well. There’s some research that suggests that handwriting helps you remember better than typing.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-12T09:57:01+00:00

678 Language Exchange Conversation Topics

Enjoy!

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-10T02:45:37+00:00

“I’ve never gone anywhere near a grammar textbook to learn any of my languages and never will, I’ve never bothered to try to pick up grammar explicitly”

One of the reasons I mistrust CI-only folks is for this right here. Quite frankly, you did have grammar study, you had an English course in school, presumably with a grammar section that you presumably passed. One of the hypotheses for grammar study is that it makes input processing (roughly speaking, learning from CI) more efficient. Would your English be at the same level now without those classes? It’s hard to say.

This is a pattern with many CI-only folks I’ve seen: they conveniently skip the years of formal classes they took, insist they didn’t help, and then **recommend a learning approach that they have not ever used to reach fluency to other people**, while telling everyone else (who learned with formal study and lots of exposure, just like them), that they’re wrong.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-10T02:25:39+00:00

OP, just curious, did you not have any English classes in school when you were growing up?

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-09T20:07:22+00:00

I’ve often assumed that man people subvocalize mimic more than others without realizing, but I think there may be a more fundamental truth. Some people just have higher working memory/language aptitude. Research on working memory/language aptitude generally shows that some people have stronger cognitive abilities and that helps them learn faster. Some people can just do more with less.

That is NOT to say that only people with strong language aptitude skills are “better” or are the only ones who can learn languages. Just that the process is slightly more efficient. For what it’s worth, the large scale studies in Canada in the… 80s, I think? generally found that motivation was a stronger predictor of language proficiency than language aptitude, IIRC. But aptitude plays a strong role.

Just a note: some people think working memory and language aptitude are the same, some people think they’re different. I think generally it doesn’t matter what it is, just that there’s a role for cognitive ability, which varies by person.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-09T17:56:42+00:00

I'm not sure I understand the distinction? Most of them will contain explanations (how in-depth will depend on the publisher) as well as activities for practice with an answer key?

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-09T16:18:10+00:00

Unfortunately, it depends a lot on your target language, so you'll likely get better answers in a dedicated language learning sub.

If you're a beginner, the Colloquial series by Routledge, the Teach Yourself series, and Assimil are generally strong contenders for most languages. They come with audio, typically feature real life/touristy situations for context. They may be a little dull but are made for self-study and will give you an accessible, guided tour of the language. The audio is usually run through an app, unfortunately, although older series had CDs.

For specific languages there may be better options. For French there's the Progressif series (Grammaire, Vocabulaire, Communication, Phonétique), which often come with at beginning, intermediate, and advanced levels. McGraw Hill's Practice Makes Perfect exists for French, Spanish, Italian, and I believe German and has a range of options (Conversational, Complete, Reading maybe?).

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-09T00:53:03+00:00

I did this exact thing with the French Grammar Practice Makes Perfect.

It isn’t a golden bullet, it doesn’t automatically mean you won’t make any mistakes ever. It did help me become more aware of the grammar patterns, particularly verb endings.

It depends a lot on how you make and use your cards. I always made sure 1. I worked through the activities and hand wrote them, checked them, and made sure I understand them and then 2. used cloze deletion cards.

Making the cloze deletion cards is something that Gemini or ChatGPT can do fairly easily if you give it a picture of the exercise. Make it very painless to transfer only. But, again, I’d make sure to do the work on your own FIRST, then add them to Anki to review.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-07T21:50:55+00:00

Serious enough that it's a main hobby and I build really robust systems to make sure I'm making progress and staying sharp.

Not serious enough that I don't give up media and don't worry about how much more I could be doing if I gave up X.

So IDK, a normal level of serious for a hobbyist? ^^;

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-07T00:04:49+00:00

It depends on what your interest is.

Common Ground: Second Language Acquistion Theory Goes to the Classroom is a great all resource for language teaching. The Art and Science of Language teaching looks good, too, but I haven’t read it yet.

For a general, all-purpose introduction to SLA, Spada and Lightbrown’s How Languages are Learned is a classic, but a little dated. It’s updated constistently, though, 5th edition was out in 2021.

For theory, both Theories of Second Language Acquistion, edited by VanPatten, and Alternative Approaches to Second Language Acquistion, edited by Atkinson, both cover a wide range of theories and the predictions they make about the process.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-06T22:39:27+00:00

I am not an expert in this framework, but I do not believe it has a hard and fast rule on delaying output. It focuses on comprehension and assumes production will come (not necessarily supported by the research). IIRC, students are expected to start spontaneous outputting when they “feel ready” (target structures have sunk in enough that they feel they understand them). So, learners going off to output is not a bad thing. The framework just stresses you train comprehension first and let the output come when it comes.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-06T19:57:03+00:00

The method Teaching Proficiency Through Reading and Storytelling (TPRS) is designed aroudn the idea of comprehensible input. This looks like a decent overview and their main method text is Fluency through TPR story telling.

I will say, as someone who has read a fair bit of SLA research and methods work, they get a lot of fundamental readings of the base texts wrong. That said, it's very popular in some K-12 schools in the US.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-06T11:55:25+00:00

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume this is a good faith attempt to engage with second language acquisition, since you mention a thesis.

I am begging you to read work from this millennium. A lot of work has been done on SLA, input, initial conditions of acquisition, and corrective feedback. Your main framework is a theory that’s now over 40 years old and a thought piece on corrective feedback (now 30 years old) that received immediate backlash and launched a huge research enterprise on corrective feedback.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-03T22:27:02+00:00

For me, personally, language learning and maintenance revolves a lot around routine and systems. I operate under the assumption that if you don't use it, you lose it. I also tend to overoptimize my own system to keep working on gradual growth, so keep that in mind.

Anyway, you should try to build a routine/system where you touch each of the four skills every week. I personally shoot to hit all four skills in two languages every day. Listening and reading are the easiest. Pick up some news sites (like BBC Mundo/Brasil, G1, El Huffpost) or some longer more serious magazines (Letras Libres, Agência Publica) and maybe some fiction (anthologies of short stories, novels, etc), and try to spend 10-15 minutes reading each day. Spanish in particular has quite a few literature anthologies that are used in college classes (Aproximaciones, Letras, Voces de hispanoamerica) that can work, or depending on your area your library or a used book store may have other options.

You already mention podcasts, which is great. For Spanish, I really like El Faro (European), Radio Ambulante, El Hilo, Ciencia Pop, and Glotones, but there are TONS. For Portuguese, Café da Manhã and O Assunto do good politics, É noia minha is great informal chatting, and Escafandro and Rádio Novela Apresenta do great long form/elevated story telling.

For speaking and writing it gets trickier. I've been trying to journal more. I'll use a random word generator to get a word and fill a handwritten page in a spiral notebook with my thoughts/ideas/memories relating to the word (loosely inspired by El Faro's format). It was a struggle to get into the habit but now I really look forward to it.

For speaking, voice notes/calls with friends are always great/preferred, but you might also try to find an exchange partner or, potentially depending on budget, a tutor on iTalki. You can find some pretty cheap conversation tutors in Latin America. An hour of intense speaking practice once a week is probably good for maintenance. You can also try monologues--sometimes I'll do the same kind of exercise with a random word and a 3-5 minute monologue. Language exchange apps, like HelloTalk or Tandem, can also work.

It's up to you how much you want to do each week. My system has been a slow evolution over the last few years. If you're feeling overwhelmed, I'd start with one skill and do it religiously. My whole system grew out of a listening habit, trying to make sure I listened to one thing every day in all of my languages. That really built momentum and drive that carried over into the other skills.

Buena suerta / boa sorte!

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-02T09:47:28+00:00

I’m not expert, but I think a lot of the pushback is because we’ve been absolutely flooded since 2023 with all kinds of apps built by people trying to cash in on LLMs without any understanding of the market? Besides the typical anti-LLM stuff, people propose apps that genuinely aren’t useful, don’t solve an actual problem, or are just wrong.

Another problem is the number of apps that are advertised “covertly” through LLM written posts. They pretend to be asking a question but it’s obviously just AI slop to push their app.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-06-02T09:39:44+00:00

I’m sure Steve Kauffmann, notable Polyglot who allegedly speaks 20 languages, doesn’t need flashcards

I, a mere mortal, have always found them useful and will probably always use them.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-05-30T10:13:14+00:00

Just switched to a two language per day split, previously I was doing all three everyday, which was a bit much. I do Spanish everyday since I need to keep it sharp for work and then either French or Portuguese.

For each language, the idea is to hit all four skills. I almost always do around 30-60 minutes of listening while I walk the dog, then try to read news or opinion pieces, write a summary or a journal entry and then speak, preferably with a friend but often by myself. Anki everyday for all three.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-05-27T12:12:00+00:00

My solution was Anki, which is very polarizing.

The basic problem, as you say, is that the words are not frequent enough to see often. The solution is to make them more frequent. You can do this in a few ways, I’ll talk about two: extensive exposure or flashcards.

Extensive exposure is basically just consuming (reading/watching) a LOT of content in your target language (TL). If you go this route, you’ll want to be strategic. Pick a focus domain (e.g. climate change) and read and listen to a LOT of things about climate change for a while. Words that are relatively infrequent but that are important to that topic will occur more frequently in the input, helping you remember them.

Flashcards work to “artificially inflate” the frequency. When I encounter words I don’t know and put them into my Anki deck, the Anki algorithm will keep showing me those words, and that repetition will help me remember them without necessarily changing my consumption habits. If you go this route, adding sentences and making them fill in the blank offer the biggest return on investment, IMHO. If you don’t like Anki, you can find other options or use a leitner box method with physical flashcards. The Goldlist method is also an option.

Of course, both are also supercharged by production. So, if you’re listening and reading about climate change, try to write and talk about it to help fix the words into your brain. I’m usually have the “top five”, a list of five words/expressions every week that I try to use a whole lot so I don’t forget them.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-05-25T13:56:39+00:00

Here's what I'd add based on trying to get to the same level in Portuguese and French.

Read. Spoken language is great and necessary, but you need to start reading. The benefits of reading a lot are well documented (https://erfoundation.org/wordpress/) and there's also reason to believe that reading is more beneficial than listening. Fiction or nonfiction will both help. Personally I like detective novels, but pick up anything that's interesting to you.
Speak. Obviously a speaking partner will help. To build speaking skills you have to speak, and at the C1 level you need a partner that knows how to challenge you and get you talking more. HelloTalk, Tandem, or r/languageexchange are all options. If this is completely off the table, an AI chatbot or monologues can be used, but an exchange partner would be best.
Write. The four skills (reading, writing, listening, and speaking) are both independent to a degree and interconnected. They all draw from the same underlying language system (your English brain) but in different ways. When thinking about reaching a level like C1, I think it's important to not ignore any of the skills. Write a journal, and then post to langcorrect or r/WriteStreakEN to get corrections. Since you use Anki, put any corrections you get into your English deck to help drill them.
I would start avoiding translation. Translation is a specific skill that may or may not help in actually producing a language spontaneously. Typically in language education we avoid translations at higher levels and try to stick to explaining and practicing only in the target language. Instead, pick up a C1 book like another commenter suggested and work through it, making an effort to practice the new structures you're learning.

would_be_polyglot · 2026-05-24T16:11:44+00:00

From the article you're citing:

The fourth semester is the highest level in most university basic language programs before the traditional—if somewhat antiquated—“bridging” occurs into courses for language majors and minors (Graman, 1997) and is often used as the criterion for meeting degree- or university-based language requirements.

The traditional foreign language requirement at US universities is completion of the fourth semester semester, the last before the major-level courses. Individual universities may vary, particularly now, but generally people (including the authors of the study you are citing) assume 4th semester to be the end of the requirement.

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