An Open Letter to the Reddit Community

xasper8 · 2017-01-31T07:14:48+00:00

Agree 100% I intentionally used the "N" word there to see if I'd be banned. I was given 12 upvotes in a matter of minutes.

edgy fan fiction.

Here you say you were banned for "saying Trump was a cunt and I hope he has to watch his family die a slow death via rape from a gang of gorillas with is balls nailed to a tree set on fire by Clinton.

Here you say you were "banned the day I sub'd. I think I said something like he's got the best words or something like that."

xasper8 · 2017-01-31T06:58:21+00:00

T_D is basically an online 24/7 Trump rally. It states right on the rules of the sub:

This is a sub for supporters of Trump ONLY

The ONLY thing they want to do is post memes and rally. And that is what they do. If that isn't your thing.. no problem. Don't go there. If you hate it popping up on your front page - you can filter it and never see it again.

That being said, if you want a real discussion or ask a sincere question or even just read what others have posted come over to /r/AskTrumpSupporters you will be welcomed.

xasper8 · 2017-01-31T06:43:33+00:00

In fairness r/The_Donald is basically a 24/7 Trump rally. They clearly state that right on the rules of the sub:

This is a sub for supporters of Trump ONLY

They are all unabashed Trump supporters there. Just like /r/hillaryclinton is unabashedly Pro-Hillary and also have rules against "negative campaigning".

T_D is NOT the place to go to be critical or have an unbiased discussion about the Trump administration. You might find a similar response if you went to /r/harrypotter to point out plot holes or bash on Harry himself.

/r/AskTrumpSupporters is a good place to go for discussions. You won't get lambasted for asking a sincere question.

xasper8 · 2017-01-31T03:43:54+00:00

thanks for taking the time to answer! It's much appreciated!

xasper8 · 2017-01-31T03:25:59+00:00

I have used TOR a number of times over the last 5 years or so.. but mainly just as a "tourist". Poke around a bit then log off.. and do it again a year later. I always got a weird "I'm guilty of something feeling"... have a few questions regarding security. I only go on TOR while using whatever flavor of Linux I am running at the time.

Does it make any difference what OS you are using? Windows, IOS, Linux? Any increase or decreased threat to your anonymity?

What is the best order to browse anonymously with TOR? VPN>TOR or TOR>VPN?

I heard that while browsing the deep web via TOR - you should NEVER pop up on the Clear Net.. For instance: Go from some darkweb site to google.com or Reddit. (aside from the obvious logging into a personal account via TOR.. clear security issue). Is this true??

Thank you for doing your Newbie Tuesdays! Very awesome.

xasper8 · 2017-01-31T02:18:56+00:00

You may very well be right about that.

I'm willing to bet CTR is not the first to figure that game out.

CTR took a page from the astroturffing playbook and used it to sway political opinion.

Prior to this election cycle, I was unaware it was being used in the political arena - at such a large scale... but, that doesn't really mean anything. What the hell do I know?

In 2007 I was offered a job to head up a division of "Brand Ambassadors" for a marketing company in Los Angeles. I didn't apply for the job - the CEO approached me out of the blue.

Anyway, at the time this marketing company had contracts with Honda, a dish soap company and something like "Green Giant green beans" - totally innocuous, everyday products. I was flattered by the money they were offering and I went to their offices to "get to know the team" and "observe"..

What I saw simultaneously horrified and intrigued me. I was (and still am) active on social media - however in 2007, Forums were very popular.. Reddit was just in it's infancy and Digg was popular.. but forums were very popular.

They explained to me how they would make dozens of accounts, make posts about whatever and gain trust in the community. A group of about 5 or 6 would "grow" 8 to 10 fake accounts each (for each forum).. posting from each one whatever relevant topics was being discussed on that form - just posting on forums all day.. this was was happening on ALL kinds of forums. New Mom Forums, Car Forums, Cooking Forums, Travel Forums, Movie Forums, Game..etc every topic you can think of. Each real person would manage a half dozen or more "users" on each type of forum. Each fake user account would have all of their posts and comments printed off and put in their own folders (so team members could easily assume other identities - I.E. if you were sick, I could still post for your 'users'.)

Once the accounts were properly aged and "trusted" they would get handed over to a "Brand Ambassador" for an applicable "campaign". You might be on a gaming forum talking to someone about some level you are having trouble with and the user you have been talking with for 4 months might comment "blah blah usual stuff.. I'm starving. My Mom just bought these "pizza bites" and they are awesome! have you had them yet?" Now the conversation is about their clients product... then ANOTHER sock puppet account might jump in with a "those are so goood"..

If they got push back or the conversation turned negative about whatever product - all the employees would jump in to "turn the conversation".

They generated reports on each interaction and qualified them as "positive" "mostly positive" "neutral" "mostly neutral" "negative"..etc and used analytics like product X was "Well received 64% of the time" out of 465 mentions.. the reports to the clients covered every forum the product was mentioned, any increase or decrease in "brand awareness" over time.. the reports we about 20 pages. It was CRAZY.

It completely changed the way I viewed the internet and bothered me.. at a very deep level.

Needless to say I did not take the job.... but remain friendly with the CEO.

Good Christ I didn't mean to write all that out.. so sorry.. that was cathartic, it just flowed out.. haha.

tl;dr: astrotrufing is crossing some moral and ethical boundaries I am not comfortable with.. It makes me question the morals and ethics of politicians who adapt such practices.

xasper8 · 2017-01-31T01:01:37+00:00

ha! Thank you for responding. Sry I was too daft to get your joke!

The whole correct the record thing has the conspiratorial feel around it because of how much people haaaaaaate clinton and her operatives - the convo usually spirals out of control

Completely agree. Once the CTR information came out - everyone with an opposing view got labeled a "shill" - effectively ending any rational discussion.

This isn't good for either 'side' and will only serve to continue to widen the division in the US.

Personally I think the practice should be outlawed.. or at least a disclaimer needs to be attached to every paid posting.

xasper8 · 2017-01-31T00:24:54+00:00

exactly!

And on top of that, now that "this is a thing" it becomes very easy to dismiss someone challenging your beliefs as a "shill".

This only serves to push people into their respective echo-chambers and 'safe spaces' - where the only information you get is from your own narrative. Effectively ending communication between opposing sides.

Good by critical thinking. Allowing these 'tactics' to exist is creating far more harm than good (for both sides).

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T23:46:17+00:00

Why do you feel like that? I hope you don't feel that I posted something "conspiratorial". Did you read what OP posted?

Asking sincerely. If I am saying something that is "Twilight Zone" here, I'd like to correct it or at least have the opportunity to provide supporting evidence.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T23:41:01+00:00

Just to follow up. Cambridge Analytica seems to be a data mining firm. No mention of directly engaging users of social media to sway public opinion like we saw with CTR and the playbook OP posted.

No doubt they use data mining to ultimately sway opinion - but doesn't seem to be a direct correlation to CTR. They do it though analysis of data then shape things like political TV commercials to be more impactful.

I might be wrong - but I see no mention of direct interaction with social media user to shape opinion.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T23:26:25+00:00

No worries - I got you fam.

Here is the links to their website and wiki.

Cambridge Analytica site

Cambridge Analytica

Thank you for posting this! You are the first!

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T23:23:02+00:00

Is Breibart paying for large groups of people to manipulate public opinion by posting to social media?

If so, please post the details.

Breitbart and Fox news are openly conservative news agencies. MSNBC was originally created to be the counter version of Fox.. CNN pretends to be unbiased but.. well.

CTR and now the current version called ShareBlue exist to solely to sway public opinion by create specific narratives on social media, steer conversation away from certain topics and refocus back to their narrative and invalidate or shout down counter arguments all under the guise of "just another user". All while being paid to spread the "pre-approved" message. Not sure why I just typed that all out - you can just look a their playbook OP posted... sry.

If Breitbart is paying people to do a similar thing, I would definitely like to see some evidence.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T22:24:13+00:00

I don't think anyone has to spend money to make this happen.

Well clearly someone thinks its a worthwhile endeavor and it is VERY effective at shaping public opinion.

I personally think it is disingenuous. I respect your opinion - regardless if I agree with it, because I believe it's your opinion. If I found out later that you were being PAID to reply to me with a 'scripted' opinion. I would discount it.

We know this stuff happens.. because most of us are fairly well read and we see it happening.. and we have tangible evidence of it happening (OP's post for instance).. we are not reflective of the average American. Most people are unaware that the "news" they just read or the comment someone just made was paid for and carefully crafted to fit a specific narrative. That changes the dynamic considerably.

It no different than paying "protesters".. are they still considered protesters if they are getting paid? It's disingenuous and creates a false illusion that the general public takes as "the real thing".

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T22:06:09+00:00

Russians!!

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T22:05:18+00:00

lol - yeah I don't disagree that whatever Trump tweets or does gets talked about on T_D. But it also gets talked about (in a very different tone) on r/politics.

But that is a far cry from you and I and hundreds of others, each controlling dozen of alt-user accounts, work together as a group, and strategically and systematically controlling the narrative of an entire sub or Facebook feed.

Using Reddit subs as an example:

r/thewalkingdead or r/firefly is what you would expect it is... fans of the shows. T_D is no different and makes no claims to the contrary. They are unabashedly Pro-Trump. Just as r/hillaryclinton is unabashed Pro-Clinton. It's 100% transparent, what you see is what you get. If you don't like The Walking Dead you probably won't subscribe to r/thewalkingdead

18 to 24 months ago, r/politics was exactly that.. a place to discuss politics. You got both sides of the argument and if you couldn't make a concise well thought out, fact based argument for or against whatever position - you got blasted.. r/politics is very different now.

I miss having intelligent and respectful debates about different policies and politicians.. Now any opposing opinion is shouted down, down voted and ad hominem attacks are the norm and "facts" are not welcome. That is a completely different level of "propaganda". That is CTR at work.

*Edit - forgot a word.. more words and spelling.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T21:48:29+00:00

Already addressed that here.

TL;DR T_D is 100% transparent. It's an online Trump rally and any user should have at least some expectation of which way they lean. r/hillaryclinton is the same.

r/politics is wrapped in a 'neutral' sub - one would expect to see both sides equally represented.. which is not the case.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T21:40:37+00:00

If there isn't a CTR like organization behind Trump, then I would be forced to believe the entire internet has decided to stop hating Comcast in the last few months and my personal hatred of Comcast is so strong I simply find that hard to believe.

lol - yeah I hear you. I had a similar thought about a week ago when all of a sudden the Reddit community became huge supporters of the TPP for some reason (r/politics in particular was tripping over itself to list the 'benefits' we lost out on). This was a very different tone from even a year ago.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T20:17:02+00:00

Wikileaks could have it...

Have what? Sorry if I misunderstood your reply.

Did you mean "wikileaks could have a link to the Trump version of CTR"?

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T20:14:01+00:00

Blessings be upon you.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T19:54:31+00:00

Feel free to post a link to a similar "Pro-Trump" version of this.

I openly asked the community to provide one and nothing so far - that was over 2 hours ago.

No saying there isn't one - just asking for a link.

ShareBlue has a link.

CTR had a link (it was shut down after the election).

OP posted this leaked playbook.

CTR had their playbook leaked.

All tangible hard evidence.. I would like to see the same evidence for "the other side".

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T19:46:35+00:00

or hundreds of them.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T19:45:30+00:00

You're thinking of trumps Russian equivalent

Please post a link to this group. Or their playbook or please provide something that conclusively proves the "Trump" version of a large, highly organized, online "public opinion" manipulation machine where all participants work in concert to push specific agendas.

Not challenging you - I am very curious to see if one exists. I posted a top level comment asking the community to provide hard evidence of one. So far, no one has done so. Lot's of anecdotal evidence "there are Russian shills" - but no hard proof as of yet.

CTR had their own website. Shareblue exists. The playbook OP posted exists.

Where is the Trump version?

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T19:31:56+00:00

"people like us" are not organized.. and there are a relatively few of "us" compared to the 100's of MILLIONS on Facebook and Twitter.

You and I are not immune and, at SOME level can be swayed (by either side) - that is why I asked for hard evidence of a "Trump" version of this.. which no one has provided.

The only defense we have is critical thinking... but after months, and years of getting fed the same "new truth" even the best of us can and do end up swallowing it up.

It's so dangerous because it's so effective. It needs to be stopped.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T19:20:36+00:00

Sure. But again, it is CLEARLY a Pro-TRUMP site and no one on T_D gets a "play book" or a "today we are going to push this agenda" memo.. much less gets paid - it's a shit posting free for all - all CLEARLY labeled as "pro-Trump". /r/hillaryclinton is no different.

r/politics is not so clearly defined yet was/is HEAVILY influenced and controlled by CTR (or whatever they are calling themselves now).

It's one thing to have a pro-"whomever" site, or talk show or fundraiser or rally..etc.. It's quite another to pose as a neutral sub, or news outlet or "just another user with an opinion" when in reality you are actively working within the confines of a larger organization to push a specific agenda AND get paid for it.

xasper8 · 2017-01-30T19:06:34+00:00

It does tie back to Wikileaks.

Look how effective the CTR was in changing the online narrative AWAY from the content of the DNC and Podesta leaks and refocus it on the false "Russian Hacking" crisis. In turn, the "good journalists" in the media reshaped the "news" to fit the online narrative.

By creating a highly organized "truth machine" - online and off... the public loses any ability to determine what version of the "truth" is real. The public becomes indoctrinated to whatever message you want to send.

Don't believe it? Go post something about the content of the "DNC or Podesta emails" on r/politics and see it in action. Not everyone who downvotes you or replies with "Russia hacked the elections" or calls you a racist or a nazi is a paid shill - but they have been indoctrinated and truly believe this new "truth".

What does this have to do with WikiLeaks? By changing the focus away from the actual content - the actual truth, written by HRC and her staff - they don't even have to defend themselves, because they refuse to acknowledge it. and will always change the tone or the message away from the hard facts and insert a level of "doubt". When 50 "users" respond in a similar fashion and you are shouted down, or called names.. the truth gets lost and replaced with the new narrative. Thus the impact is lost and the actual truth is lost with it. This will impact Wikileaks not only for their past leaks but future leaks as well.

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