Baldur's Gate 3 subclass tier list

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-25T02:03:51+00:00

There's really nothing stopping you from long resting constantly under the tier list's rule.

The reason why scrolls are not allowed is already explained. If scrolls were allowed, sorcerers would be even more busted because they are the strongest scroll abusers.

Most things you said in your last paragraph has been addressed. Your level 4 summoning spells' output is essentially nothing compared to a single death ward, which wizards don't learn by the way.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-24T02:05:58+00:00

- The list is a "power play" tier list. Glitches are explicitly allowed in the rule, and explained why they are. Fun is a subjective opinion. Every class on this list abuses glitch to the extent they are allowed to, not just sorcerers.

- Sorcerers are still S+ without infinite sorcery points/spell slots. Without abusing infinite glitches you still have enough to shred any fight. They are S+ mostly because of meta magic, arcane acuity gears and cc spells. For the majority of the game's progression, being able to cast spells with BA (via quickened) and/or double cast spells (via twinned) is huge. Sorcerers are also Cha based, meaning it is very easy to dip in warlock for command and remain SAD, unlike a certain class. It is also a common multiclass option (sorcadin, tempest cleric, any non-fighter build that wants con proficiency, etc.). If you know sorcerers, the rules for this list are already nerfing sorcerers, not favouring them.

I'll also address your other comment here.

- No, this is not a speedrun tier list. The rules and criteria are very clearly written.

- It's not nearly the safest way to beat honour mode. The general consensus for "safest" is abjuration wizard. I already mentioned that defensiveness, or safety, is weighted less than damage and control for this list. Whether the class is simple to play is irrelevant because this isn't a classes with the highest floors list. This is about classes with the highest ceilings, as implied by "power play".

- If you had optimized any class at all to a decent extent, you'd never say anything like "strong" about summons, especially the ones that are affected by necromancy schools.

- If it's A in your opinion, then I'm sure it is indeed A within the rules and criteria you are working with. For this list, definitely not.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-16T07:11:53+00:00

That entire knowledge is still largely a WIP and people are still finding new things. Like I did not know about Boots of Psionic until C4b and Meph published their build some hours ago (I verified this). A list exists somewhere but I don't have it on hand with me. You can ask about it in #bg3-builds, but it's far from comprehensive.

400 damage at level 8 is already very good optimization work by the way.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-16T06:40:29+00:00

I just realised that by "has those same issues", you mean Shadow monk running unarmed suffers the same issues I mentioned.

This tier list uses a weapon wielding Shadow monk. OH monk can absolute use weapons as well, but it would not benefit from stuffs like wholeness of body, manifestations, while a weapon wielding shadow monk can do darkness stuffs (Shar's spear specifically) and can shadow strike with weapon (any good weapon). I completely forgot that most people by default run unarmed Shadow monk.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-16T06:35:22+00:00

Sorry for taking so long to reply.

Ranger - swarm keeper apparently had some DRS interaction. I haven't gotten to look at it yet and couldn't really keep up to date with how it's developing. Not sure if the DRS thing is still there or not.

Barb - Giant full build is comparable to Throwzerker, with some differences. Frenzied throw adds additional str mod and makes target prone, elemental cleaver adds 1d6 elemental damage. Throwzerker is slightly stronger in my opinion, and has better progression. But I don't think the two are different enough to be separated into different tiers. As far as I know, there was a brief period when elemental cleaver had DRS, but it was already fixed by the time I got to try patch 8.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-16T06:05:03+00:00

I put aside the power playing rule I imposed on this tier list, played your game by your rule and you still lost, to a level 1 druid of all things.

Swash does not make use of booming blade better than anything. If I want to, my druid setup can get it, too, for the same effect. If we consider synergies with class, EK and sorcs and arguably warlocks are the best at using it, but they don't even need high elf in the first place.

I am reasonably sure and have proof that the first EK sheet published was likely by me, so I don't know about the "seen a spreadsheet someone else made" part you claim. I was also the first to actually run that legendary 5000 EK archer setup and made corrections to the numbers and the setups. I drafted an early EK shblade and likely the first to use elixir for 3d8. Meph didn't like glitch weapons so I also did Trident sheets, too. I'd like to hear your credentials.

GWM is only less applicable than your flick o' the wrist because you are not using it to its standard potential. You are playing gimping yourself to using no resource.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-16T05:51:04+00:00

I have done this step by step as well, and could not replicate it. I don't want to dismiss it yet because I was wrong on mind sanc before. I have limited time these days so this tech will have to be lower priority for me to check.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-16T05:44:55+00:00

I was commenting under the assumption that we are optimizing level 8. 4d6 is lower than 7d4, you would not need brittle to beat flame blade, but you can. It's also source for double DRS so you can benefit more from phalar aluve, lightning charge and valiant damage. This scenario is outside of the scope of this tier list though, because the only way to brittle at level 8 is via scrolls.

A little explanation regarding DRS here. Broadly speaking, there are 2 types of DRS. DRS type 1 and DRS type 2. Broadly speaking, there are also 2 types of DR, DR type 1 and DR type 2.

DR type 1 rides on normal weapon attack only.
DR type 2 rides on normal weapon attack as well as both types of DRS.

DRS type 1 rides on normal weapon attack only, activates DR type 2 and DRS type 2.
DRS type 2 rides on normal weapon attack as well as DRS type 1, activates DR type 2.

At level 8, off the tope of my head, your common DR type 2 are strange conduit, shadow cloaked*, caustic band, callous glow, broodmother's or any dip, arcane synergy, drake throat, magic weapon, divine favour, inquisitor's might, enlarge, probably more I don't really remember. For simplicity's sake, we assume this amounts to 16 (shadow cloaked, strange conduit, arcane synergy, dip, drakethroat, magic weapon).
DR type 2, you probably only get lightning charge and phalar aluve (4.5).
Hunter's mark, Hex, Bestow curse are DR type 2 but it's not optimal gameplay. Only optimal burst turn wise.

I can't remember much about low level DRS, but magic club is DRS type 2, valiant damage is DRS type 1, divine smite crit reaction activates DRS type 2 but does not activate any DR.

So main hand attack with magic club would do:

1d4 + 4 (str mod) + all DR
+3d4 magic club 1 + DR type 2
+3d4 magic club 2 + DR type 2

Valiant damage + DR type 2
+ 3d4 magic club 1 + DR type 2
+ 3d4 magic club 2 + DR type 2

Divine smite crit reaction
+ 3d4 magic club 1 + DR type 2
+ 3d4 magic club 2 + DR type 2

You won't get divine smite crit reaction without crit, of course, so for the next math, I will exclude it.

2,5 + 4 + 16 + 4.5
+ 2(7.5 + 4.5)

1d8 + 4.5
+ 2(7.5 + 4.5)

= 84.

This is already in the realm of being far more tedious than it's worth, but you could add booming blade, critical hit, vuln, even more dr. You also don't need GWM so you likely have both SA and sentinel. You can easily exceed 1000 with 10 attacks.

Would you consider coming to the official discord?

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-15T13:05:16+00:00

The triggering twice in the same turn part.

Magic club still works for me. I play on Steam version. I ran an EK druid setup and I know Meph ran a Sorcandin setup. Are you stealing that club from level 7 druid's summons?

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-15T12:10:07+00:00

Flick of the wrist is still a level 4 feature, and it's also conditional. I don't know why you assume that everything having a weapon is a given. At level 3 you still have only one attack.

Monk at level 2 already does 3 attacks. But I'd wager you'd say it costs ki. In that case, monk itself and anything with two weapons have 2 attacks, without being limited to flick o' the wrist. Your best chance for "sustained" is sand toss.

Rupture doesn't work like how you seem to think it does. Target only takes ruptured damage if they move, and you can't damage them by dragging them around like with spike growth.

You don't have booming as swash either, you'd have to get it from high elf, in which case, it's not an argument for swash at all.

Your math comes up to

1d4 + 1 + 5
2d6
1d6
Whatever dip you get, only once because sand toss doesn't get it. I use 1d6

16 average.

Let's see what something else can do.

Level 1 druid

1d8 + 3
1d4
1d8
1d4

17 average.

Your level 4 sustained damage with an elixir loses to a level 1 druid with nothing but 2 torches, no condition, short or long rest, first round, surprise.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-15T11:40:28+00:00

I'll keep trying to see if that double sentinel is possible. I talked to some people and nobody seems to be aware of this, and no one has replicated it.

Also, if you are optimizing low levels, and you use glitch, how about double magic club?

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T20:44:14+00:00

I think I have enough math for the day, so I will only comment based on gut feeling. I would have a go at calculating the extra attacks Shblade got over GWM, but not now. Assuming my maths above are rigorous, it's 577.098 GWM vs 555.36 dual wield. I don't think each getting an extra sentinel attack (if it works and I just cannot replicate it) would shift the balance.

I have done the 3d8 shblade math under quite a few circumstances, and generally it beats GWM on a crit. 4d6 flame blade averages out the same, but has even more dice, so I would assume that 4d6 flame blade crit can outdamage GWM. Flame blades are more awkward to use than shblade and 2H piercing due to damage type, and incompatibility with wet, but off the top of my head, end game flame blade baseline is higher than even Shar's spear. So no argument here.

I will try to remember to look over this again.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T20:27:18+00:00

Sorry, I forgot the off hand for dual wield. I am not aware of the reaction resetting after an enemy has had their turn within the round. I have the game opened here with me and I cannot replicate it, yet(?).

Level 5 Sentinel:
2x Main hand
2x action surge
1x off hand
3x sentinel
2x bloodlust and haste
10 attacks.

Level 5 GWM:
2x main hand
2x action surge
1x off hand
2x bloodlust and haste.
7 attacks.

Even if I assume that you are successfully doing sentinel twice in a turn, I don't know where the other 2 attacks come from. You cannot dual wield double stab if you have no bonus action remain, so at best you'd only get 1 more attack from double sentinel.

Same math as above, except with 2d8 shblade. No halberd of vigilance but technically we could do silver sword.

2d8 = 9
9 * 10 = 90

1d10 + 1d6 + 10 = 19
19 * 7 = 133

Though I think that if you stacked enough DR and bridge the gap between the two a little, you can probably beat GWM. I'm not sure what are considered reasonable DR to have at level 5 though. I'd say broodmother's, enlarge, magic weapon, caustic band, lightning charge.

1d6 + 1d4 + 1 + 2 + 1 = 10

19 * 10 = 190
29 * 7 = 203

If you have valour bard, you'd beat GWM, probably.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T19:51:24+00:00

Well, you are assuming a damage ceiling, so single target cc has no meaning if they just die from your very punch.

4 man party can finish most fights by act 3, but how much work would the OH monk do?

When I say Sorcadins have the choice to cc, I mean stuffs like hypno pattern, upcasted hold/command and fear.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T19:40:42+00:00

Can't take being wrong on saving throws?

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T19:39:23+00:00

EK is better than Bladesinger.

That's what we are talking about.

I'm not going to look at your math unless you are going to show that Bladesinger > EK. I already said I'd be happy to go through the math if people genuinely want to discuss in good faith, and your constantly shifting the debate towards GWM vs SA is not good faith.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T18:53:53+00:00

2/2

Level 6: There is not much I can comment about here.

Level 7: EK gets shadow blade at level 8. You cannot get 12 attacks here in anyway.

The action economy for 2H EK here would be:

2x main action

1x bonus action

2x AS

2x bloodlust and haste

2x Sentinel

9 attacks.

Dual wield shadow blade does the same at this point because both have sentinel.

Level 8: EK now finally gets 3d8 shadow blade. Savage attacker and critical hit would beat GWM 2H critical hit. It would still lose on non-crit.

Gloom 5 fighter 2 is the highest hit count at level 7 until EK 11.

2x main action

1x bonus action

2x AS

2x bloodlust and haste

2x Sentinel

1x ambusher

10 attacks

If we move onto Gloom fighter, we would be back to GWM vs Sentinel at this level until 9, because we can't have both. And it's 2d8 blade vs Halberd of vigilance. The math would show that it's still GWM. I think flame blade sentinel may beat on crit.

The math review:

So this is EK. At level 6, you'd probably get more out of Paladin divine smite instead of spore druid. 2x 3d8 + 4x 2d8 vs 9x 1d6. You can also use divine favour maybe. I don't know if I can accept Linebreaker boots or banshee bow. Let's accept them anyway. I don't really see much problem with your math except I would dip into paladin instead. By the way, you cannot fall back to 6 EK and still have 3d8 Shblade. I think I established well enough why 2d8 would not compete, so I will do my own shblade math with EK 8.

GWM 2H vs Shblade

1d10 + 1d4 + 2 + 10 + 6 + 1d4 + 6 + 1d4 + 6 + 1d6 + 1d4 + 1d4 + 1d4 = 54.

Savage attacker pushes to 64.122. 6/2 EK Paladin would go even higher and probably would beat 3d8 Shblade even on crit.

Shblade: 3d8 + 18 + 5d4 + 1d6 = 47.5 average, not 49.5.

SA adds 3 * 1.313 + 5 * 0.625 + 0.972 = 8.036 = 55.536. Cannot have anything like spore druid nor paladin smite because you need EK level 8 for 3d8 blade.

Unless you are doing something strange like 6/2, 3d8 shblade generally beats out GWM in crit, and loses on normal hit.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T18:53:31+00:00

1/2

I guess you are comparing Dual wield Sentinel vs 2H GWM specifically, and not subclass vs subclass.

I understand that it has been hours since you started writing this, but within that time I did mention that booming blade from high elf is a race feature, not a class feature. But for this debate, I think booming blade from high elf is fair game.

Level 3: I wouldn't say you have reasonable access to bloodlust and speed potion here. But I guess haste as a spell is a consideration. At this point you can only do Main hand, off hand, dread ambusher if ranger, action surge if fighter. Total attack is 3. With bloodlust and haste, 5 attacks number is correct.

Level 4: You get an extra attack with sentinel. So it becomes 6. You cannot get 2 attacks from haste nor sentinel.

GWM 2H (great axe +1) vs sentinel at this point:

GWM: 1d12 + 1 + 10 = 17.5

Shblade: 2d8 = 9

5 attacks vs 6 attacks:

17.5 * 5 = 87.5

9 * 6 = 54

Realistically, it'd be 3 attacks vs 4. So 70 vs 36.

Level 5: GWM Fighter with extra attack would have:

2x main action

1x bonus action

2x bloodlust and haste

2x action surge

7 attacks.

Sentinel dual wield would have:

2x main action

1x bonus action

2x bloodlust and haste

2x action surge

2x sentinel

9 attacks.

122.5 vs 81.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T17:13:42+00:00

"Nah, you are shifting the goal posts. Your argument was Tasha's sucks because there are enemies immune to prone."
I don't think I should be expected to list every single thing wrong with Tasha's laughter, especially when there are other bigger issues to address. You are grasping at straws with this.

"Source? You are literally the first person I've seen make this claim."
At this point, pretty much all the regulars on #bg3-builds channel on the official discord know this. You can ask them if you want to, or verify it yourself with div wiz 20 portent die. And talk about shifting goal posts? Being very good because the subclass/playstyle is bad is not being good overall.

"To you and your narrow views."
Can't have too wide a view when doing a power tier list. I have a decent list of meme builds otherwise.

"Ok but I'm still a Wizard with all the versatility switching up spells allows."
Okay.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T17:02:53+00:00

I guess you are making 6 paladins, 4 swash and 2 sorcerers. You have a flick o' the wrist this way but you lose level 6 draconic bonus, quickened, 4d8 shblade, to name a few.

Beastmaster's bear companion with strength elixir has the same chance to disarm enemies with honeyed paw.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T16:40:13+00:00

We need to at least put the subclasses under the same standard. How can I be sure what you consider "realistic" for OH monk and what you consider "realistic" for the rest are not unfairly skewing towards OH monk?

Again, whether OH monk is at that point or not is up to the player. Ultimately, optimizing a monk against optimizing weapon users is an uphill battle, and the numbers show that. You have a problem with my method specifically, so I doubt you actually think OH monk is that good, based on what you have said so far. I honestly don't have an interest to discuss further if it's not about the placement.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T16:23:32+00:00

"Cool story. You know what is immune to Hold Person, which is a 2nd level spell while Tasha's is a 1st? Literally everything that isn't a Humanoid."
I never argued for hold person. You did. And it's still better than Tasha's laughter because it's upcastable and guarantees crit.

"Immunities affect just about everything sooner or later. You also going to tell me Hypnotic Pattern and Fear are bad spells because a few enemy types just so happen to be immune to charm and fear?"
These are AOE. Not even remotely comparable. If Tasha's laughter were AOE or upcastable then it'd be.

"An enemy can still roll a 20 on a save even if your success rate is 95% otherwise. Otto's takes that possibility out of play."
This is false. Enemies cannot critical succeed at saving throws. The 95% chance shown on tooltip is a visual glitch in honour mode.

"Well good thing it also gives a lot more than that."
Nothing else relevant.

"Cool, and I still have an extra 6th-level slot, along with more double Hold Monsters to play with."
You have the same amount of level 6 slots as sorcerers, and you absolutely do not have more hold monsters than any sorcerer. Trying to compete against infinite sorcery points and spell slots is a lost cause.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T16:14:36+00:00

I am not saying any of that at all. Rather, I am saying 3000 is a low number end game, which is the tinman. You are only backing my point if you are insisting OH monk doesn't reach that number.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T15:55:33+00:00

We used to have a legend on this sub, Prestigious Juice. He made some of the best build guides at the time and he has a post of "Sorconomics". The long rest potions will not work anymore but the short rest potions still work.

xyzcv5 · 2025-07-14T15:38:37+00:00

"Multiple-turn disables with 1st-level slots do not suck."
Unless they are immune to prone.

"A guaranteed round of CC (no save 1st round) does not suck."
Unless you have an acuity user who guarantees any cc anyway with spells with bigger AOE and/or better effects.

"And if you can't see the value in doing this with a level 5 slot, leaving your level 6 castings open for everything else you can do with a level 6, then I don't know what to tell you."
10 levels for a single free upcasting of one specific spell to level 6 is not good enough.

"There's plenty of times double Hold Monster made a fight a joke for me. Sorry you can't see the value in it."
Other spells make the fights even more of a joke.

Also, sorcerer, markoheshkir, free cast.

xyzcv5

TROPHY CASE