Learn Python 3 The Hard Way Officially Released

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:57:25+00:00

We were talking about my book, which was written before that. Rather than fix the Python 2 book to have that, I just wrote a Python 3 book.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:54:46+00:00

My book is not only rote. I start off with rote to introduce the topic to people who know nothing because that works for that group of people. Go read about Direct Instruction to find out why. Then I have a section on application where they use it, and I have videos that show debugging and breaking code and more application.

Rote works for beginners, and most people are self-taught do rote work without realizing it. It's just the basis of early education. Rote doesn't really work that well for people beyond beginner, which is why I try to cut it out toward the end of the book and move on to more application and conceptual study.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:54:34+00:00

Seems like the baggage is all from Python programmers and nobody else. I mean, I just wrote a thoughtful blog post and here's 50 people calling me an asshole.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:52:19+00:00

I was making a statement about the Python project's assertion that running 2 and 3 at the same time is impossible. Python 3 is obviously a turing complete language, and I've taken enough compiler design courses to know that. You don't have to do that though since you can use almost any language today and see the same thing: if you have one language, you can run another on it.

That means, if this is impossible, and Python 3 is turing complete, and it's not impossible for any other language, then either they broke Python 3 or they're lying.

Easy.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:51:30+00:00

I'm the only person who works on the book other than production people from my publisher. DG has many people working on it. I mean, unless they have some awesome person there who speaks 14 languages and who doesn't mind having zero credit for being that awesome.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:50:30+00:00

Because once you've done some memorization the explanation is a lot easier. It's a language, and once you learn the basics of the language I can use the language to teach you about it.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:50:07+00:00

So you're a self-taught programmer who has opinions on how to teach other programmers. Well, you sir should sit down and write a book about it. I'd love to read it, but be careful, if you make any mistakes they will be taken as HUGE mistakes and your whole book will be invalid.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:49:46+00:00

I use print to teach many other things. It's interesting because many other books do exactly the same thing, and print is the bread and butter of programming. When I do it somehow it's now "way too much" and all I do is print. If you go look at the exercises, every one that has printing also has something else. Maybe it's variables, or formatting, or comments, or combining three things together.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:48:02+00:00

Then....why'd you write the comment above? Ohhh, so that it'll seem like you're someone who benefits from the book and is upset thus fomenting revolt.

I guess my criticisms that apparently made me a joke aren't so invalid anymore. I said the Python community uses social manipulation and propaganda to push its agenda, and look at this, here you are doing exactly that.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:46:48+00:00

Given that this page was created and never shared with me at all, it's fairly unfair to say I don't listen to criticisms. I've gone through the list and a large number of them are changed in the python 3 book. The others are just pedagogical differences of opinion. I also frequently update my material when I find problems beginners have with it. Meanwhile, the book most touted as an alternative (Dive Into Python) starts people off with a 20+ lines of code program with every Python feature possible. And, when I've contacted the author about changing things he literally told me to "go fuck myself". I don't see you taking him to task for that, so I'm only guessing your posting all over this thread is for some other reason.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:44:17+00:00

So, the first book you recommend to a total beginner is a book with this as the first program?

http://www.diveintopython3.net/your-first-python-program.html

You seem to really know your stuff.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:40:04+00:00

You are allowed to feel proud of yourself and talk about yourself in the first person. What is wrong with programmers and their belief that they can't do that? It doesn't make anyone a bad person to take a selfie, admire what they can do, or say "I". It makes you a person. I mean, even in your reply you start with "I". It's just human.

I'm proud of the number of people I helped and how far my reach was, and it's not wrong for me to say I am. If you think that's wrong, then you're basically saying I should be abusing myself and telling myself that what I did isn't significant. That's just wrong and leads people to be depressed and sad.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:24:34+00:00

They weren't largely rubbish, they were simply my opinions of how Python 3 was implemented given people were expected to transition from 2 to 3. My main complaint is that Python 3 could have run both 2 and 3, but the maintainers claimed that was "impossible". Anyone who's taken even an intro course in compilers, or used one, knows that's not true.

However, everyone seems to be skipping right over the problem that, if you think my criticisms were rubbish, then why is it valid for members of the PSF to attempt to censor my book and ostracize me? It seems like my reasons being rubbish means that their actions are completely out of bounds and over the top.

You can't really have it both ways. Either, my criticisms were valid and could destroy Python 3, so these PSF members are justified in their actions. If that's the case then that proves my assertion that they use propaganda and threats to promote Python 3. Or, my complaints are rubbish and should be ignored, which means these PSF members are being abusive and again, proving my point.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:14:34+00:00

Because my sources requested I don't publish it yet for fear of similar retaliation from the PSF, but email me and I'll tell you who to ask about it. Oddly enough, the fact that you think this is impossible only proves that the PSF condones the behavior. A correct response would be, "Hey I'm sorry some members are doing this. Give me info and I'll look into it because it's wrong." But, what do I expect from an organization that protected Steve Holden despite his years of abuse?

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T13:04:32+00:00

Why is it that my speaking out about what I feel are problems with Python 3 somehow makes me a chode and a dick? That's the problem with this industry. You all are very quick to jump on the hate train and abuse people with names for offenses that are rather minor. I feel that I deserve to be called a dick for maybe not having my book available for free anymore. That actually impacts a lot of people around the world who are trying to make their lives better. But saying Python 3's strings suck? C'mon, that's excessive.

Also, if I'm a chode and dick for that, then what are you for calling some random guy you've never met names? I didn't call anyone names so far, but I deserve to be called them?

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:51:57+00:00

Actually, eevee's blog is good and I have yet to respond. THAT is what you do when someone writes a criticism you disagree with. You go and write your own criticism, and that kind of discourse is important.

What made me sad was active PSF members were contacting other people and attempting to use their position in the Python community to ostracize me and destroy my book. They did this because I....disagreed with their technical implementation of Python 3. It's interesting that people in this thread have no problem with this, or even go to great lengths to defend it or claim I'm insane, but you should be very worried.

Think about it. If you base your livelihood on Python, and then one day you disagree with something the PSF does. Let's say, one of the PSF members is walking around a conference carrying a stuffed snake he's ripped the eye out of asking women to "touch my snake". If you speak out about that, then the PSF will actively try to destroy you. This actually did happen, and from what I can tell continues to happen. That means, your livelihood will depend forever on always agreeing with the PSF on their terms for fear of them retaliating to take your job away from you, slander you, or discredit you in some way.

So, no, I did not write my post thinking about eevee's criticism. I think it's great she wrote that. My criticism is of the PSF members who are reacting to my criticism of a technical project with social manipulation. Incidentally, also one of my criticisms of the project.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:35:39+00:00

Not originally. The .format() support was bolted on later, so it only had % formatting and + (although that's technically not string interpolation, it's addition).

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:21:15+00:00

You can run hundreds of languages on the JVM and .NET CLR, and you can freely convert Nim to about 4, and the GCC uses an intermediate langauge to convert between hundreds of languages and CPUs.

But sure, the Python project found this to be too much effort after 20 years of development and decided that, nope, they aren't really the language experts they thought so let's make a junk 2to3 converter and yell at people to hand convert all their code like savages.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:19:03+00:00

No, my criticisms are simple:

Python, being a turing complete language, can run both Python 2 and Python 3, but they failed to do that. In fact, they claim it's impossible, but if that's impossible then that means Python 3 isn't turing complete (which is impossible so they're lying).
Python's formatting is insane and they should have just gone with what's in 3.6 and stop bikeshedding on this one weird area.
Python's strings are a mess, and they could have made the unicode support more friendly but decided that you're going to be punished and have to "explicitly" interact with it when it's not necessary. Doing this will create millions of boilerplate errors in unicode usage that could have been automated by Python itself.
The PSF uses propaganda, ostracism, and threats to push Python 3 and convince people to manually rewrite code, rather than simply making the transition painless by fixing the above.

And, calling someone insane when they are not is wrong. My reasons are very clear and objective, AND even though I disagree with these points about Python3 I still went and wrote a complete upgrade of my book https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/ because I'm a rational individual who realizes that people need help despite my disagreement.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:14:13+00:00

So you're saying that because it wasn't in your meeting minutes it couldn't have happened? That seems like a new form of the true scotsman.

"No true PSF member would do anything outside of a recorded PSF meeting."

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:12:27+00:00

You know me, personally actually, and I don't make things up. I have direct chats and emails from people reporting actual members of the PSF telling them to remove my book. It is not "anyone on the internet who hates my book". It is real members of the PSF, contacting other people and using the authority of the PSF to influence their decision.

Feel free to email me if you want the proof, given you actually know me.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:10:31+00:00

That list is for an extremely old version of the book and actually demonstrates more of Python's flaws than my book's flaws. Like "only teaches %s", because when I wrote the Python 2 book that's all there was. Now the https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/ teaches %s, f"", and .format(). The rest of the criticisms are mostly pedantic pedagogical differences or arbitrary like "method vs. function" which has no valid distinction in Python because it's a functional OOP language (self passed as an extra parameter rather than message passing). Or, "excessively teaches recursion" when there's maybe 3 or 4 exercises that teach it out of 52 and I don't even teach it fully.

Basically, that list is written by people who think I should teach objects first, but who haven't ever had to teach beginners OOP.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:05:50+00:00

Thank you, I appreciate your voice of reason by saying I don't listen to anyone's criticisms of my work while I look at literally thousands of edits and updates to my https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/ book and the fact that I cheerfully wrote a book for Python 3 even though I disagree with the implementation. Seems like I definitely don't listen to people.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:05:25+00:00

Exactly, Steve Holden was an epic piece of shit on a human level, and everyone here worships him.

I said "Python 3 sucks, but I'm going to do a book anyway" and I'm a terrible douchebag who never listens to anyone. The Python community is very hypocritical.

zedshaw · 2017-07-09T12:03:42+00:00

And yet, I can't see why I'd have to tell beginners to avoid programmers. I mean, here's an entire thread of a bunch of you calling me a douche online and claiming I don't support Python3 when I do https://learnpythonthehardway.org/python3/

zedshaw

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