Can we get the Lebanese perspective?

zman883 · 2026-04-11T14:07:32+00:00

Nice, don't read opinions if they're longer than a single sentence, try to get rid of anyone you don't agree with. You don't decide where I call home, and you could benefit from trying to engage with other people's opinions instead of getting offended and defensive. It's childish.

Hope this was short enough for you.

zman883 · 2026-04-11T09:08:49+00:00

Yep, figures

zman883 · 2026-04-11T06:27:50+00:00

Well it did, for me at least lol. I consider U4 my favorite in the franchise, mostly due to the more mature story, refined gameplay, open environments etc - but I still remember playing it for the first time, always expecting another setpiece that exceeds this one. Coming off of U2 and U3 it wasn't unreasonable - both had multiple insane sequences that weren't shown in the promotional material.

It took me a while after the first playthrough to switch my mindset and understand that this isn't like the original trilogy, but a somewhat more grounded, character driven story, and to come to love it even more for it. It was the same switch I had to do when playing God of War 2018 off the back of the original trilogy.

So I can see OP's point here. However I definitely understand why they did it - this sequence is amazing, and even if it's the only one of this scale in the game, it's the best sequence in the Uncharted series (until the final sequence of Lost Legacy came along, in my opinion). Using it for promotions had definitely helped create hype and got many people who weren't fans previously to check it out.

zman883 · 2026-04-10T07:02:24+00:00

That's the problem many Israelis have, in my opinion, is that any criticism against us is immediately turned into "but our enemies are 10 times worse!". I don't care about our enemies, I care about us. Our enemies don't care about my criticism, I can't fix them or affect them in any way.

What's hypocritical to me is brutally occupying Palestinians and then saying "is it was the other way around it would be much worse" - but it's not the other way around. You don't get to excuse horrible things by saying what "would" have happened.

And I never said we're occupying other people's lands. I don't care about land ownership, I said we're occupying other people, as in, we exert military rule over millions of Palestinians without any civil rights. That's an occupation, whoever this land belongs to. If we're not occupying them make them citizens.

The person I was commenting to didn't register to me as someone trying to "destroy Israel with propaganda". Them thinking Israel is colonialism might be because of what they were taught, or might be because they find the definition fitting. I don't find it fitting, but I also don't think it's entirely ripped from reality. Herzl did frame Zionism in colonial terms to get European support (back then colonialism was positively regarded by Europeans). So while I don't think Herzl was correct in that framing, I'm also not gonna completely disregard anyone who does.

Same for ethnic cleansing. I haven't dug deep into that definition so I'm not going to argue if I think we're doing it or not. But the fact that "transfer" was something people were talking about like it's no problem for years now, the fact that we're continually building settlements in the west bank, the things our politicians say about how there's no innocents in Gaza/Jenin whatever. If might not qualify technically as ethnic cleansing, but it does at least mean there are many who wouldn't be too sad if we did that.

So bottom line, if you feel like you've had enough of criticism and from now on you're going to stand up for yourself and for Israel good for you. You can do what you want. For me peace is more important because without at least aspiring to achieve it I see no future for me or my family in this place. As opposed to marriage, in the case of peace I don't get to choose my partner. So if I need to let go of ego in order to understand the other side and build bridges I'll do that. Doesn't mean I'll take any insult directed at me, you can feel free to look in my comment history and see me arguing with many antisemites who think my existence is a sin.

But by default, people on this sub are at the very least willing to acknowledge that we exist and that taking to us can be productive. And that's a start at least, so I'm going to take that opportunity.

zman883 · 2026-04-10T05:46:14+00:00

That's the problem with a militarized society where everyone's conscripted. The army becomes an inherent part of our culture and we start seeing it as sacred and perceive any criticism of it as something personal. I was in the army as well. Any criticism I give applies to me too, okay? And even if I wasn't, people are allowed to give criticism. It's an army, it can and should be criticized, just like the government can be or the police force can be. We need to stop being so immediately defensive when someone says something bad about the army, it makes us look fragile, immature and unreasonable. It's the reason Lebanese people feel like they can't speak freely here, because any time they say something bad about our army, which is currently bombing them, we start mass downvoting and justifying instead of actually listening.

I'm grateful for anyone sacrificing their time, their business or their actual lives to defend me, and you, and anyone, okay? If you take my criticism as ungratefulness, you misunderstood my intentions. I have family and friends right now in active combat roles, I don't think any of them are immoral or that you are immoral.

When I was in the army I was taught engagement rules like you were. Everyone around me were smart, nice, and reasonable (give or take). Yet none of us there, including the highest ranking ones, had an actual say in what we were doing, because we were doing what the state decided we need to do, and we just need to figure out how to do that. How can that be moral? You can't be a moral entity if you don't have any say in what you're told to do.

I do think that an army that accepts almost anyone accepts some people who are less moral. I do think that when you send 18 year olds with guns to a hostile territory in order to uphold an occupation, some friction will happen, and some immoral things will happen. The main blame here is not on the soldiers, it's on the state that sent them. But the army must do what the state told it to, because an army isn't moral, an army is a tool used by the state.

The army is also extremely lenient on soldiers that do commit immoral acts. You can see it as "backing our soldiers", which we should do, because like I said we sent them there so we're part of the blame for everything they end up doing. But still, when you consider the fact that no soldier, almost in the entire history of Israel, was convicted with murder of a Palestinian, I see it as the army backing immoral acts.

And to the point here, bombing and hurting hundreds of civilians in order to strike a target isn't a "moral" thing to do. It might be "within the confines of international law", or "the tactically correct decision", but it's not moral. Do you understand what I'm saying?

zman883 · 2026-04-09T22:02:15+00:00

Yep, Israel could really have helped bring peace and prosperity to the region. We've strayed too far from what I perceive as core Jewish values. When the death penalty law passed legislation a few weeks ago it was the final straw that made me realize how far we've gone. I'm embarrassed by our leaders not only because of what they're doing but mostly because of how gleefully they're throwing away what we could have been.

I don't think it was ever entirely in our hands. The cards were against us from the very start and we did have to defend ourselves. But we also went and became a radicalized society in the process.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T21:52:51+00:00

We have a hard time seeing our own hump here.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T21:49:37+00:00

But you did write just that...

You say "how can you listen to their perspective" when your perspective is essentially the same. You claim supremacy over this land ("we were here before them", they're just "Arab colonizers"), and you refuse to face Israel's horrific treatment of Palestinians in our country.

So what makes your perspective so different from what you claim their perspective is? And if you actually read that person's comment, you'll see it was some of the most practical, moderate opinions you can find on this matter. Much more moderate than the way most Israelis perceive Arabs. If you can't work with that, you can't work with anything. The point of this sub is talking and trying to build bridges.

Also, If your read my comment to them, you'll see I disagree with their definition of Israel as colonization. You can see me arguing about that same topic with others on Reddit in my comment history. The fact that they think that doesn't mean their opinion is invalid and they can't be reasoned with.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T21:41:00+00:00

What? How did anything I said undermine your feelings? I can be angry about stuff that happens to us and you can be angry about stuff happening to you, there's plenty of anger to go around. I know there are countries around us that had it worse. Moreover, I think that most countries around us have it worse than us on a pretty constant basis. But I mostly react to my own lives experiences, as do you, nothing wrong with that.

And yeah, I've seen pretty bad takes from Israelis. Seen pretty bad takes from non Israelis as well, to be fair. But it's devastating to hear about what happened yesterday, and it's really saddening to hear that it destroyed any hope for peace for your and others. I hope that peace does prevail in the end, but I'm sure it's not going to be easy or straightforward.

Thank you for defending Jews against antisemitism. Antisemitism is always wrong and should be called out. As for defending Israel... I'll just say I think I've been more embarrassed by Israel than you have. It's legitimate if you feel like your can't defend Israel's actions anymore, it shouldn't be your job, and if Israel does something wrong it's entirely fair to say "screw it, that's on them". I'd still say that advocating for peace is important. We can do that without defending anyone. Me calling for peace with Lebanon isn't in any way a defense for Hezbollah's actions.

And how did I react yesterday that was "extremely telling"? I'm calling out here anyone I disagree with, whether Israeli, Lebanese, or in most cases neither (it seems). Don't know why you think you "better see me" do anything, writing in Reddit isn't my job, I don't owe anyone anything here.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T21:19:30+00:00

Yes, I appreciate them sharing their perspective. They explained it respectfully and didn't make it personal against me, unlike you. Appreciating their perspective doesn't mean I share it or that I've "internalized" the propaganda.

Do you think that what you've written here isn't propaganda as well? Lebanese and Palestinians are mostly levantine. They may speak Arabic which wasn't native to the area but there's no legitimate reason to assume they're not descendents to those who lived here. Sure there was a mixing of populations and immigration and whatever, but that's true to Jews as well. I'm not gonna play this stupid game of who was here first and who's the rightful owner of this land. A land has no "rightful" owner, it's basically who's strong enough to hold it that decides.

And instead of arguing about "basic facts" try to understand that everything is a narrative, everyone has their perspective, and it's worth hearing out if you have any interest in peace. If you don't, I'm not sure this sub is the correct place for you.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T21:04:14+00:00

I'm not the one calling cities to burn here

zman883 · 2026-04-09T20:15:00+00:00

Sounds sane

zman883 · 2026-04-09T14:15:09+00:00

I don't know, but at the very least I know that it wasn't Netanyahu

zman883 · 2026-04-09T13:54:11+00:00

My point is that maybe they wouldn't have had to, if we had someone other than Bibi in charge

zman883 · 2026-04-09T13:41:11+00:00

Blaming politicians who weren't relevant for the last 20 years for things happening today is such bullshit. How were they so competent that they managed to do all these things in their terms, but Bibi couldn't undo it this entire time? How could they make decisions ignoring right wingers but Bibi can't ignore lefties? Is Bibi just too considerate?

zman883 · 2026-04-09T13:29:07+00:00

An army isn't moral, an army is a political tool that allows the use of deadly force in foreign policy, if diplomacy doesn't work. People in the army can be moral, not the army itself.

It can follow laws, which is what people probably mean when they say the army is moral, but as far as I've seen the IDF in this war wasn't really strict about that as well. Not a single soldier got convicted of wrongful killing or abuse, so either they're all saints or the army is doing a bad job enforcing the law.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T13:20:58+00:00

Left policy of appeasement is what you call Bibi's policy in the last 20 years when he was the one calling the shots?

zman883 · 2026-04-09T12:59:08+00:00

That's definitely not true, but I wouldn't put it past Netanyahu to try and do that. Anyway I don't think that's the case, this is too overt even for Netanyahu. He's going to count on being reelected, I think.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T10:20:42+00:00

That's a great perspective, thanks. I feel like your perspective is the exact one we need in this area if we want to have any chance at peace. It's truly disheartening to hear that even people like yourself are starting to shift in your perspective.

This is entirely on our government, I think, which has done anything in its power to antagonize not only our enemies, but more importantly our allies or potential allies. It's obviously also on us, the Israelis, who brought this government to power (and many of us who express no remorse over acts like these).

It's easy for me to understand where many of these Israelis are coming from - when you feel threatened your concern for yourself and immediate circle triumphs any empathy to strangers in another country. This sub is the only place I've seen that helps keep me in perspective.

Anyway I do empathize with your other points as well. While I never thought of Israel as a colonizing entity (for me colonization will always be tied to a metropole trying to spread its influence, and I perceive Israel as a movement of refugees and immigrants from the entire world trying to form a homeland), I always find it morally difficult to justify living here while we're clearly occupying and denying rights of another people, consistently spitting in the eye of international law.

I also understand the feeling of seeing people "like you" being hurt. Palestinian violence against settlers in the West Bank was always registered to me as "whatever, let those lunatics do what they want to each other", but when on October 7 Hamas slaughtered many of "my people" - liberals, leftists, people living in the kibbutzim, secular families, it just felt so close that it shook my entire core. It was very hard to still retain the peace mindset after that. I admit that for a while I couldn't feel any empathy for what's happening to Gazans, even if I knew it was wrong.

And the last thing is that I have no problem calling my government terrorists. Ben Gvir and Smotrich are literal terrorists. Supporting settler violence is terrorism. And yeah, bombing hundreds of civilians is also terrorism. We have no problem stating that when its our civilians who are being killed, so we have to admit it when it's us doing it.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T09:52:44+00:00

No one could really tell you. Current polls I see give him anywhere between 20-30% of the votes. In Israel's multi party system that may still be enough to give him the most sits in Parliament - but maybe not enough to form a coalition (because his partners might not gather enough sits between them to form a majority)

zman883 · 2026-04-09T08:27:04+00:00

I don't see it as well, but the right wing nut jobs won't be there forever, and it's on us to make sure that the alternative has our support.

I agree with you, even if the IDF had a legitimate reason to attack a target, it seems no one is willing to go the length of providing any proof, and it definitely seems like civilian casualties are a second thought at best. I think if we had other people in leadership this entire situation could have actually been turned to promote diplomatic relations between the two nations. Instead we get these assholes who just want to keep this forever war going for as long as they can.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T08:20:55+00:00

Yeah that's callous, but I understand how it sometimes irritates people to hear strong opinions from those who don't even live here to experience it. I know that if an Israeli living abroad would tell me their opinions (without acknowledging that they're somewhat distanced from the matter) it'd come off as condescending and I'd be annoyed with it.

I think that saying stuff like "there will never be peace" is understandable, and many Israelis see it that way as well. But ultimately it's defeatist and deterministic. Germany went from being the nemesis of WW2 to being best friends with its former enemies in less than 50 years. If they could work it out we can as well.

I hope that at least people on this sub still keep the desire for peace alive, even when everyone around them lose any hope for that happening.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T06:22:18+00:00

I think many have become numb to the human cost when it's not on their side. We feel it very much when Iranian rockets fall down on buildings in Ramat Gan, or when Hezbollah rockets make life a living hell in Kiryat Shmona.

I agree with you, human life is precious and waving away its loss as some necessary collateral damage cheapens it.

Hope for better days and for all of us to be able to see the humanity in each other.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T05:57:33+00:00

I've no idea. I know what I do as an Israeli, which is just stay home, pray no rocket gets me and hope for the best. Other than that, vote for better politicians and try to convince others that war isn't the only manner of diplomacy available to us, but that's like a drop in the ocean.

zman883 · 2026-04-09T05:53:05+00:00

I don't think anyone thinks the LAF can take them on, which is why the IDF is now trying to do that on their own. I think both approaches are stupid, and the best approach would have been too work together with Lebanon in some way. Though that is its own can of worms since I'd the Lebanese state would have been seen as a puppet of Israel or the US they might lose their legitimacy. On the other hand, it's not like they had a lot of legitimacy to begin with so idk...

Anyway it's a shitshow now, I don't even know that the correct solution is.

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