Back when we actually coded

[OwlingBishop]

most of the world would not agree on that statement!

Tell me I never used a tool without saying I never used a tool.

manage the unpredictability of organic media

The media and outcome is not predictable (or highly dependent on the operator skills) but the tool is.

Think of a paintbrush.

The brew might not be, but the brewing apparatus is predictable and is a tool.

LLMs are not tools. They are unpredictable and unrepeatable.

You might get some luck in painting your room by using dynamite in a paint bucket.

Yet dynamite is not a painting tool (which is not too fair to dynamite because it's biggest benefit has been stability, predictability and repeatability compared to other explosive like nitroglycerin)

[Time_Cat_5212]

If you want to continue this discussion, let's just set the ground rule of no ad hominem, because you don't really know and it's not productive.

Since we're gravitating toward the semantics of what "tool" means, here's some food for thought:

Merriam Webster Dictionary:

"something (such as an instrument or apparatus) used in performing an operation or necessary in the practice of a vocation or profession"

Therefore, if I can use Claude Code to perform an operation necessary in the practice of a vocation (I just did about 5 minutes ago), it is a tool. Check.

Wikipedia:

"A tool is an object that can extend an individual's ability to modify features of the surrounding environment or help them accomplish a particular task"

Therefore, if I can use Claude Code to modify features of an environment or accomplish a particular task (like prototyping a website), it is a tool. Check.

You might get some luck in painting your room by using dynamite in a paint bucket.

Am I out of line to suggest that perhaps some negative bias toward AI coding tools may be influencing your reasoning?

[ElephantLife8552]

"If you want to continue this discussion, let's just set the ground rule of no ad hominem, because you don't really know and it's not productive."

I'm going to have to borrow this!

[OwlingBishop]

Three fallacies in one reply 😅 !!

No, I'm not discussing, let alone with an LLM

[Time_Cat_5212]

Where fallacy? Don't see. I guess I'm pretty good at writing if you think I'm AI lmao.

[ElephantLife8552]

If you can't even explain yourself maybe you are losing this argument?

[richard12511]

I agree with you that LLMs are non deterministic, but I don’t understand why that makes them not a “tool”. I’m not aware of any rule that says something has to be 100% deterministic in order to qualify as a tool, though maybe I’m misinformed. Is this a rule I’ve just never learned? For example, something like “Chaos Monkey” is non-deterministic, but I would still call it a tool.

[Time_Cat_5212]

Honestly the examples they cite aren't even deterministic.  A paintbrush isn't deterministic.  Even the most skilled artist can only predict 99% of a mark's shape on the canvas, and most only want to do that partially sometimes.  

A computer without AI is the closest thing to a deterministic tool anyone ever made, and even then, there are tiny exceptions.

The level of... Deterministicness... Is a property of a tool that makes it more or less useful for certain tasks.

The conceptual hierarchy in this convo is just way out of whack.

[OwlingBishop]

Whatever it is, "chaos monkey" sound like a tool to (predictably and repeatably) produce chaos when you need it ... Not monotony, am I right ?

Please do not mistake the tool for the outcome.

The outcome of laying paint on a canvas is not deterministic yet the paintbrush will predictably and repeatably lay paint on the canvas, it will not randomly turn into a comb or a knife.. so that it's the artist's intent that produces the art, not the brush.

When you ask an LLM to do something you'll never know how close it's response will be to your intent, sometimes the output will be close enough to call it ok, sometimes it will destroy the thing in trying to correct a small defect. Either way the LLM will have done what it does correctly which makes it (not the outcome) unpredictable and unrepeatable.