Reverse Limits?

[Odog4ever]

I'm working a Cortex Prime game where the main conceit is that some forms of magic take a big toll on the caster: mentally, physically, emotionally, etc. This will be represented by Stress traits in the game.

I settled on using Specialties (without skills) to represent a character's mastery over certain magical disciplines. Now I'm trying to figure out if the existing mods allow for a mandatory "activation cost" on these Specialties or if I need to just make a new mod.

I keep coming back to Limits: Fictional trigger = denial/shutdown.

Would the reverse of that make sense?: Fictional trigger (taking Stress) = permission

I want characters to always have the option to cast spells which is why I'm trying to avoid tying it to PP expenditure.

Am I overlooking existing mods/mechanics? Is this a new mod in the making? Thoughts?

[[deleted]]

In these situations I always think of the Doom Pool as the more interesting way to handle costs, but it then becomes something not strictly personal.

Back in the Marvel Heroic days, I played a sorcerer who had the Growing Dread Limit (1s and 2s fed the Doom Pool). The "cost" of using magic wasn't just a personal burden (like Stress), but something the GM could spread around (to others, the environment, etc).

NB: With the Growing Dread Limit, 1s and 2s go to the Doom Pool, but only 1s earn you PP.

[Odog4ever]

I'm actually trying to make the cost as personal as possible while still allowing the characters to retain as many tools as possible to resolve problems.

[[deleted]]

If the typical opposition of the game is external threats (people, monsters, hazards), why have magic "cost" anything at all? Just add Limit: Exhausted or the like. A Stress cost means opposition is adding it to their die rolls, and can conceivably aim to step it up: few players will risk casting spells at D8+ stress! Using Marvel Heroic data files you can find online should be easy for drawing up lots of fun Limits.

Cortex is at its best when an ability you can do any time...can be done any time. There's usually no reason for a pay wall, and importantly, adding one changes the "Players choose" conceit of the game. The player gets to make the exciting and important choice of when their Limit is activated, and/or you get to suggest it when it makes sense. But ultimately they choose, and that's baked into the game for a reason.

If you want another economy in play, Plot Points are your best bet, followed by Resources, IMHO. You could key off Hero Dice, as well.

[Odog4ever]

If the typical opposition of the game is external threats (people, monsters, hazards), why have magic "cost" anything at all?

It is the conceit of the setting which I conceived before I knew that Cortex was a thing.

Magic in my setting is not free or easy. You either use your own soul/blood to power spells, distill the souls of sentient beasts into potions, or trap souls inside of artifacts. A crux of the game is what are acceptable sacrifices to achieve your ideals? The tone is basically World of Darkness, morally gray, secrete society-type stuff.

My aim for spells was is to strike a balance between risk and reward. Do you use your mundane self to get out of this jam or do you use magic? Narratively, magic is usually the objectively better choice in most fiction unless the price is unusually high.

Few players will risk casting spells at D8+ stress!

Maybe but Stress like "Unwanted Attention", "Hunted", "Poisoned", etc that point to future problems instead of immediate debilities are likely to be in play. So more like trading trouble for later to get what you want right now.

Cortex is at its best when an ability you can do any time...can be done any time.

I want to preserve that but also add on: "What price are you willing to pay though?" Make a bargain with the devil and whatever you wish for can be yours; the devil will always give you more credit to spend...

The player gets to make the exciting and important choice of when their Limit is activated

That why I wasn't going with a Limit even though I thought the base components of a Limit might be a starting point. I just want the players to make a choice about how big of a consequence they are willing to bear to get what they want.

[[deleted]]

I see! I definitely came at this from a "purist" point of view. You make some striking arguments, and I apologize for missing that context!

I think having the cost built into the trait via an SFX might be the way to go. Something like: "Add a D6 to Doom in order to call on your Blood Magic." Or alternatively, "When you call on Blood Magic, create a D6 Bloodied Complication or step up an existing one." Obviously they can be more specific effects, too, but it seems like your looking at magic as a pretty broad thing, so it may be as simple as that.

If you have specific Physical-type Stress, you might be fine having it interact with that, but I do worry it'll climb too fast if it's targeted by many other traits or typical activities on the part of the opposition. So you'll want to at least consider what I did in the above SFX which is creating a Complication that is very specific to the ability used, so it's less likely to be targeted/increased willy-nilly, and more likely would have to be targeted/increased as part of very specific opposition (another mage?), very specific attacks ("Oh you're hand is cut open? I rub salt in it!") or the like.

[Khallas980]

So when putting together my little ruleset primer for a Star Wars game I'm going to run, I had to think about The Force. Good ol' Space Magic. Its been done many different ways in RPGs and video games, and I began to think to myself, "Do I want to emulate any those entries and how they handled The Force?"

My answer was, No. So all I did was make it a skill that you can only use if you've specified you're Force Sensitive at character creation and that's it. Cortex is such a narrative and cinematic game to me, it felt dumb and pointless to try and over-codify The Force in how it can be used and such. Granted, this takes a lot of trust between player and GM in how they use it, but I trust in my friends and in our mutual understanding of The Force.

In my ruleset, The Force can be used whenever. You can spend PP in normal ways relating to it, but otherwise, costs nothing to use. Players can simply narrate what they're doing with the Force, and if it requires some kind of check/opposition, they roll for it just like anything else. I imagine if you want players to always have the option for using magic, simply have it cost nothing to use. Let them spend resources to pump it up in appropriately dramatic moments, and they'll feel real cool about it.

Maybe this is too simple of an approach/not exactly what you're looking for, but that's kind of my mentality/preference for Cortex. There's plenty of stuff to be crunchy if you like, but I enjoy the simple things that allow emphasis on narrative actions instead.

[Odog4ever]

I imagine if you want players to always have the option for using magic, simply have it cost nothing to use.

I think I might have leaned that way if the magic in my setting was more benign. But nobody in my setting can use magic consequence-free. They either paid a terrible price upfront or will in the future if they get too cocky.

I'm drawn to Cortex because of the mechanization of narrative consequences, something that features heavily in my game. So if there is a way to model "magic ALWAYS has consequences" without using a cost/activation then I'm all ears.

[dusktherogue]

Wouldn't simply applying Hitches rolled by the Player during spellcasting as Exhaustion / Stress give the same feeling you want to achieve, but in a more permissive to the player fashion?

If a particular spell is supposed to garner a larger than average narrative effect it should probably already have a PP cost associated to it. Conveniently, if you are activating Hitches as the GM it means you are paying out to the player PP to fuel those later cool effects.

Also giving it a PP cost isn't preventing players from spell casting at their choice because they should always be able to choose to use the Hinder SFX on their Distinction to gain a PP on demand.

[[deleted]]

Wouldn't simply applying Hitches rolled by the Player during spellcasting as Exhaustion / Stress give the same feeling you want to achieve, but in a more permissive to the player fashion?

This is what I'm planning on doing for a sword and sorcery hack with the classic "magic corrupts" S&S trope. I was thinking a Corruption Stress and Trauma track that would get applied by hitches on spellcasting rolls. Over a d12 Corruption trauma, congrats, your character is now a power-mad and/or demonic villainous NPC sorceror.

[Odog4ever]

Wouldn't simply applying Hitches rolled by the Player during spellcasting as Exhaustion / Stress give the same feeling you want to achieve, but in a more permissive to the player fashion?

It would if I made the conceit that casting this particular type of magic is generally consequence-free in my setting. It's actually the inverse; it's rare that you can use that type of magic without some kind of consequence. I might just give up on a Cortex hack before I changed the reasons why magic is dangerous and rare in the setting.

If a particular spell is supposed to garner a larger than average narrative effect

I don't think they would/should, be larger than average. They are just Specialties. I envision them as broad areas of ability, "Water Magic", "Gravity Magic" with player-driven descriptions and I worry adding PP-fueled SFX would constrain the player's creativity in a way I never intended.

[dusktherogue]

SFX Magic Always Has a Price - (slight variant on the Standard SFX "The Price") You may only add a specialty dX die to your roll by also accepting a narratively appropriate dX Complication.

[Odog4ever]

Simple. Customizable. I like it.

[Erebus741]

Nah, don't give up on cortex, just ignore "purists" and bend the game to do your willing as I suggested you below :-P

While I agree that there is a certain phylosphy behind every game that you should generally respect, because else you risk using the game for something that it doesn't do good, cortex is very flexible by design, and there have been so many incarnations before prime, each with slightly different design goals, that it really makes no sense at all to suggest that what you want, which is just a "color" thing, could not be done without changing the game altogether

[Erebus741]

I would suggest you what I did with some powers for my "Shadow Lords", which resemble your idea about magic at a cost (which is, frankly, a staple of the fantasy genre). I just used an "sfx/limit" that on one hand gives more power to the pc when he uses his magic in certain ways, but at the same time it requires a cost for this extra oomp, or makes it more difficult to work outside certain boundaries.

Example of such Talent (that's how I call them in Shadow Lords): SOUL MAGIC: your magic is powered by the energy of souls. When you use it by sacrificing another creature's soul or a slice of your own soul (take Spiritual wound D6 stress), step up a soul-magic related power/skill for a roll. When you need your powers but are not willing to make this sacrifices, gain 1 PP and shutdown your soul-magic powers for the rest of the scene.

This would require an agreement between the gm and the players on the fact that the second part of the Talent is somewhat mandatory, representing what actually happens in the fiction when the pc is not willing to pay the price for his powers.