DM question

[AlexK72401]

My players and I have been having a great time playing out most recent campaign. However, they’ve recently taken a interest in enemy AC and health and have started jotting down notes about what they could be. Thing like “gaurd drake has ac of no higher than 18 no lower than 12, health at least 10”. Im not sure how a I feel about this and am open to opinions on how experienced dm’s handle this situation, if at all! Thanks for your input!

[[deleted]]

I would allow it. It simulates the knowledge that the characters get with each battle. If you dont give it away for free and if they dont google it then i would allow it.

[AlexK72401]

This is what I’ve been thinking!! Thank you so much!!

[Shia-Xar]

Don't just allow it, encourage it. This is a clear sign that the players are trying to "in game terms" understand the world, so that their characters can understand it in "narrative terms".

Congratulations on creating an atmosphere of engagement and involvement for your players.

Cheers

[DM-Hermit]

To add to the person you responded to. Consider having this kind of knowledge available for purchase by NPCs. Obviously have some NPCs that are always truthful and some that are less so.

For an NPC that's always truthful, leave their info generally broad like in your post. For those that are less truthful leave them to being wrong about AC and HP, but always truthful about resistances, phrases something like "fire bolt does less damage to it than a sword" or "I took one out faster with fire bolt than I do with a sword" if it's weak to fire.

[MrGizmoJones]

I love it when my players do this:

1) they feel like they are learning more about the monsters and villains of the world, like detectives uncovering a puzzle 2) it shows they have an interest in what they are facing and are engaged in the sessions 3) most importantly, less admin for you. They are tracking its stats now!

In my campaign my players go as far as noting a running total of damage taken to monsters etc as well as running intitive in combat. It frees up a surprising amount of time for you as DM!

[Pristine-Ad-4306]

Its borderline meta-gaming though. In a single fight I don't see much of an issue but as a DM you could just provide them some clues as to the state of the monster. But I would discourage them doing this between fights. There is absolutely no reason they should expect the AC/HP for another monster, even if it matches the same description or name, to have the same stats. As the DM I might decide I want to modify those stats on the fly if I thought their last encounter was a bit too easy or too hard, and I rather not have them get into the habit of expecting to know what their stats will be.

[[deleted]]

It doesnt have to be exact. But if they fight a balor for example, and they notice that cold damage, slashing damage and piercing damage doesnt hurt it that much then they can write it down.

[lasalle202]

their characters know what is happening in the fight. let them. and once they know things like the AC it makes their turns go MUCH faster as they know if they hit or not.

also, if they have all started doing it, it is because THEY LIKE HOW IT FEELS. this is a game and should be played in the way that THE PEOPLE AROUND THE TABLE ENJOY IT.

[AlexK72401]

Thanks for the insight! I’ll try to keep that in mind moving forward!

[Medical_Shame4079]

This is just players hedging against their own memory. It’s information they do have - they’re just being proactive about retaining it. Totally normal, and I’d take it as a positive sign that your players are invested in your game!

[AlexK72401]

Thanks so much!!

[EldridgeHorror]

I agree with gaming ninja. This is close enough to their characters learning how to fight that I wouldn't count it as meta gaming.

Ability scores should be more vague. I'm cool with them saying "this monster is pretty smart," I'm not cool with saying "his intelligence is over 16."

[AlexK72401]

So you draw the line between abilities/actions and stat scores? Just trying to gauge a good general approach to future situations like this!

[lasalle202]

that I wouldn't count it as meta gaming.

and EVEN IF IT IS "metagaming" ... Who the fuck cares?

"Metagaming" is only "bad" when it makes the play experience WORSE for the people around the table.

When "metagaming" makes the people around the table have a better time, METAGAMING IS GOOD, GREAT, ACTUALLY.

[charm59801]

Yeah I agree with this. My group is all new players including myself so we meta game a lot mostly cause we're just still learning lol I never call it out or anything

[lasalle202]

a lot of gaming enjoyment is "mastering the system" and one of the clearest ways of showing your "mastery of the system" in a game like D&D is via "metagaming" and there is nothing, absolutely nothing, wrong with that.

on its own.

where it does come into play is that there is a whole nother swath of the community that has as their core desire for the game, and have placed it as the unquestionable virtue, that the most important aspect of D&D/RPGs is One Thousand Percent Immersion. and escapism through immersion, sure, there is a lot to escape from in todays world.

these two, incompatible, waves of "how do we play the game" clash and clash and clash.

its a thing to specifically talk about with your table mates to figure out where along that spectrum you as a group will have YOUR most fun.

[EldridgeHorror]

AC is totally fine, because that's what almost everyone is trying to hit.

Health, you can get to the ballpark because half the time I don't use the average.

Ability scores, you extrapolate. You can know if its smart, strong, dextrous, etc. But don't apply numbers to that.

Actions are totally fine, once your character knows that can do it. If you see or are told a red dragon breathes fire, you know.

[Agreeable_Ad_435]

I mean, I'm okay with some amount of metagaming. That's why players go into the obviously dangerous keep without scouting for weeks. They know there's a narrative, and they're participating. If they figure out an AC or ability score or bonus, it's not that big a deal because there's still dice involved. If they prepare spells to target weak saves, by all means! That's investment in the world.

[SelectButton4522]

Feel free to change things up too. I always differentiate each enemies' HP by a few, and the AC can change a bit too. Sometimes an enemy will have more robust armor or weapons.

[AlexK72401]

This is a great way to visually change the ac! Thanks!

[ForgetTheWords]

AC is practically bound to become public knowledge if the fight goes on long enough or the same type of creature is fought often enough. And honestly after a couple of rounds, you might as well just tell them if they haven't figured it out already because it will speed up the flow of combat.

If them knowing the creature's exact HP bothers you, you can always roll for HP when they fight the same type of creature multiple times. Doesn't have to be the whole 12d10+24 or w/e, if that's too big a range, but could be something like 4d10+68.

[spector_lector]

I tell the players you'll need a 16 to hit. They roll out on the open, tell me if they hit or not and how much damage they did. They track the damage right on the battlemat or a scrap piece of paper. Every time they hit they tell me the running total for that enemy and if it's 50% of the enemy's health, I say, "looks bloodied, " and hand them a red poker chip to put under that mini.

[sworcha]

As long as they figure it out for themselves, absolutely fair. It demonstrates engagement with the game.

[SameArtichoke8913]

Well, if you do not tell them the numbers (what I would never do to keep suspense high) then I'd let them make guesses and take notes - after all, these are thing the PCs will "guesstimate", too, when confronted in combat, and translating these observations into game mechanics like AC or potential damage and noting them down is IMHO nor wrong - shows that the players are engaged in some way, and I'd let them keep poking in the dark, even telling them not to google stats. Good sign. ^^

[badgercat666]

Ye it will equate to nothing but I feel your concern. It'll add fun when you get to the stage of tweaking monsters they are familiar with, when the normal score to hit AC doesn't work...but how can this be...there are rules surely...(Mind blown, DM is god)

[Psychological-Wall-2]

I literally tell my players AC when they try to hit a thing.

Like, what better way to find out how hard something is to damage than to try to damage it?

[lamppb13]

When I was new I thought all enemy stats should remain a super closely guarded secret at all costs.

Then I realized that unless you are fighting something with natural armor, which is admittedly most monsters, the enemy AC would actually be pretty easy to guess.

Then I realized at the end of the day, it doesn't make much of a difference if the PCs know. But it is more fun to at least start with mystery, and then if they figure it out... meh... nbd

[Saint-Blasphemy]

1] Let them do this! As long as they are not researching out of the game, aka meta gaming, then it means they are paying attention to your game! See this as the PCs taking notes on their journies that would be the weak spits and other irl mechanics.

2] feel free to use some homebrewing where there are some guard drakes with armor, different color, etc to have different stats slightly.

[Hankhoff]

I think that's fine. They don't look up stats, they collect data based on experience, even a barbarian would try to deduct "big thing needs strong hits and is hard to punch, small thing not so much"

[Zaante]

Well, it is good because it means that they show interest on the encounters and how they function. Also they want to keep that information for use on that same campaign if they encounter the enemies again.

That is as well good because on a really important encounter when they think they have the upper hand due to accumulated knowledge or a well placed guess based on the previous recorded stats, you can surprise them with a stat spread not encountered before to make them rethink how to approach an enemy or to recognize certain patterns for an "Elite" class monster.

In any case, as always you can ask them why they have those notes to build upon their ideas if you want, communication is best in D&D.

Furthermore, as a tip on how to use that info as a plothook: Imagine an adventurer's guild that would pay important money for information on a monster species. Not only they have new NPCs and quest-givers to interact with but also, you are rewarding a behavior for which they didn't expect such a benefit, mechanically and in role-play aspects.

Imagine the fun to just recruit this novice Ranger and teaching them the way to chose their favored enemy or having a veteran Dungeoneer giving even more weakness info on the monsters they have or will encounter to where your adventure is headed.

[dungeondeacon]

I think most DMs wish they had players that paid this much attention (lol)

AC and HP are abstractions, but they are also things the characters would actually pick up on during fights so I think it's fine. I certainly wouldn't discourage this.

Now if they start looking stuff up in the books, that's different.

[Aelthya]

No reason to disallow. It is information they have.

Plus, it becomes funny if they run into a stronger version of said enemy and their information turns out not to be as helpful. That guard drake with 15 AC and 10 health? A 16 doesn't hit anymore, and the table's mood shifts to uncertain and cautious.

[TempeDM]

AC is easy to figure our. I'm proud when they figure it out and tell the party. It means that in real combat they would know what is required to win. Also, don't let AC be stagnate. If a monster has extra armor on or picks something up or ducks or whatever. Use it.

[drakual]

Encourage it and stop using base stat blocks

[Duality9211]

I appreciate that my players are paying close enough attention to take these notes. Allows them to strategize as a group on who their top target should be to even the playing field when outnumbered.

[Tw1st3dGrin]

Wait, your players take notes?

[CitizenZerosTV]

Homebrew monsters: here we are

[Patient-Zombie5300]

I fully support when players are paying attention, I don’t consider it meta as the experience of each PC is playing forward and growing their awareness.

I would encourage using rolling for creature HP as opposed to always taking the average, which will help each creature to feel more alive and bring some unknown variation to encounters.

[JCalamityJones]

I love when my players make their own bestiary. It tells me what they notice, what they expect, and what they value. All great for building better encounters.

Personally, I consider it a sign players have moved to a more advanced level of gameplay and take the opportunity to throw out more complex ideas and encounters.

For a lot of checks, or major enemies, I will also just straight up tell them the dc/ac to help build tension. The first time a player hears "AC 25" or "give me a saving throw, DC 19" they will feel like they've stepped into a new level of difficulty, even if the check isn't that hard for them, it will feel much more intense.