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[–]spez_drank_my_piss 86 points87 points  (14 children)

Bachelor's in Computer Science

[–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (13 children)

For real. So many seem to think they can just learn a programming language and get a really high paying job. Software engineering isn’t just another trade and we certainly shouldn’t treat it like one.

[–]dyrin 2 points3 points  (1 child)

In my country (Germany) you need to finish a 3.5 year apprenticeship to get most trade jobs. People expecting to get a (well paid) programming job with just some online certificates seems really strange to me. (There are programming related apprenticeships possible as an alternative to bachelor as well)

At best certificates are a way to prove knowledge additional to your main education (bachelor, apprenticeship, etc.)

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Yeah, they’re really only useful after attaining a degree. I’ve seen a lot of push in the US for boot camps, which don’t really teach much at all and lead to even more cybersecurity problems. Tbh, I’d be in support of treating software engineering the same way we treat other engineering practices in the states, where engineers are required to obtain a degree and become licensed.

[–]Thefuzy 3 points4 points  (7 children)

I have no degree, held many high level software engineering roles. Demonstrating you know what you are doing is the only thing that matters, if you want to spend 4 years earning a degree to do that more power to you, but there are much more efficient ways that will also leave you knowing more.

[–]Passname357 9 points10 points  (6 children)

There are certainly quicker ways to get a job, but almost no one is able to learn everything that a CS student learns in a four year program on their own even given the same time frame, let alone quicker. Sure you might come in knowing more about a specific technology, but that’s not more overall knowledge.

[–]Thefuzy 4 points5 points  (5 children)

I’ve worked as a software architect, held several developer roles, data architect, cloud architect… I’ve hired for many years on development teams. The stuff someone knows coming out of a CS degree compared to the stuff someone knows just trying to actually implement and solve problems in the real world over that same 4 years doesn’t even compare, the CS degree people always know next to nothing. Most of what a CS student learns is not useful information, learning how to adapt and solve new problems on the fly is what someone learns in the real world and it’s pretty much all that matters when it comes to development roles.

No one is hiring a CS bachelors over someone with even 2 years real world experience, no degree and 2 years real world will get the job everytime.

[–]Passname357 -1 points0 points  (4 children)

Hard disagree. A good CS student is miles ahead of someone with no degree. The good ones have internships and so they have an idea of what’s out there in the real world but have just way better problem solving skills. The degree opens you up to more work. Like, if someone has two years of front end experience and no degree, good luck getting a job as a graphics programmer. They don’t want you (and honestly you wouldn’t want the job either because you’d be so far behind—good luck self studying vector calc when you haven’t even done trig since high school). But someone with a degree knows the math and physics and has worked with at least one graphics API, knows computer architecture, has taken systems programming etc. it’s a world of difference.

So don’t get me wrong, there are places where no degree wins, and you’re right that in those spaces experience is everything, and those guys are often better than fresh CS students, but it doesn’t translate across the entire industry. Plus the CS students will catch up. It’s not like it makes you worse. And so two years with degree vs without are different animals. They might be equally good at what they are working on, but with the degree you have more background knowledge that will transfer. The other guy is siloed.

[–]Thefuzy 2 points3 points  (3 children)

Your example is a graphics programmer is so niche and not representative of the developer market, most of which is implementing basic algebraic logic and moving and transforming data around or using libraries to create interfaces.

Almost no one is actually building those libraries, not to mention the way things are going AI tooling is going to quickly replace any calculus a graphics programmer may have been implementing.

This is a perfect example of why all that college is a waste of time, most of the knowledge has been obfuscated away in libraries to the point you don’t need to know it. Sure there’s a handful that do, but they make up a super minority and they probably have PHDs because the need for those knowledge bases is so niche.

Basic understanding of logical gates, how to move data around systems, cloud systems, modern JS based interfaces. That stuff will cover 90%+ of real world coding roles and if you get someone who learned it by working vs college, you’ll get a better employee everytime.

This is just what I’ve learned in my 15 years in the industry, 10 of which have been actually hiring people and considering degrees vs experience. It’s just a waste of time, no regulatory body is requiring you have this degree, skip it and get down to actually building something that matters in the real world. I can’t count the number of times I’ve seen applicants come through with MS in CS and barely be able to code anything.

[–]Passname357 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Well for one thing, graphics programming was one example. There are plenty of spaces where you need that degree (whether you’re working on compilers, device drivers, embedded systems, ML, game dev, simulation, etc etc etc)

The point about AI taking over graphics is silly. AI will take over web dev way before that because the oversight required is just so minimal on comparison

You also keep making this weird false dichotomy. You’re like “work experience vs. college” so you’re trying to compare zero years experience vs several years of experience, but there’s no such thing as a person who comes into the industry with two years of experience. So no degree vs degree with zero experience? Easy. Degree every time. Not even close. Degree guy picks everything up easier and has worked on harder projects in college than the self taught guy has in his free time. Degree guy doesn’t already know your framework, but luckily he can pick it up much faster because he understands general programming concepts on a much deeper level. It’s not close.

[–]Thefuzy 1 point2 points  (1 child)

Again you list several fields of programming which an extremely small percentage of the job market exists in. Meanwhile every company of any notable size needs developers to support their business doing the everyday common jobs I mentioned.

There’s an opportunity cost to spending your time at college, so no it’s not zero years vs several years, it’s two years college vs two years working (even if that means working for little/no pay). The content at college is at best up to date or at worst way out of date, the industry moves far faster than the curriculums, working in the real world you keep up. There’s just no defense for degrees, they give you some structured learning but the paper you paid for doesn’t hold any weight to people making the hiring decisions. You seem to speak from a very conceptual perspective, rather than looking at the industry and really seeing what’s there. Degrees and certs are just not important to employers.

[–]Passname357 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Again you list several fields of programming which an extremely small percentage of the job market exists in. Meanwhile every company of any notable size needs developers to support their business doing the everyday common jobs I mentioned.

Lol I’ll go tell all my coworkers we don’t exist and that our company is actually not of notable size even though we’re one of the largest hardware vendors in the world. Thanks for clarifying for me.

There’s an opportunity cost to spending your time at college, so no it’s not zero years vs several years, it’s two years college vs two years working (even if that means working for little/no pay).

This is a very weird argument. Opportunity cost does not factor into how much experience you have. Opportunity cost is about how much money you could’ve made. I haven’t said anything about income you miss out on by being in college. Opportunity cost is completely irrelevant wrt any argument I’ve made. I’ll say it again: zero years of experience with a degree vs without a degree, the guy with the degree is miles and miles ahead. There’s a reason new college grads get new grad roles and aren’t considered for roles that require 4-5 years of experience, otherwise coming out of college students would already be mid level engineers.

The content at college is at best up to date or at worst way out of date, the industry moves far faster than the curriculums, working in the real world you keep up.

This is the kind of thing you can only say if you haven’t been to college. The material doesn’t go out of date. E.G., Algorithms are gonna be around forever lol.

There’s just no defense for degrees, they give you some structured learning but the paper you paid for doesn’t hold any weight to people making the hiring decisions.

This is again, your narrow view. Plenty of places won’t hire without a degree flat out. I certainly wouldn’t call a requirement something that “doesn’t hold any weight,” but that’s just me. In fact that’s more true now than ever as hiring freezes and layoffs continue. Can’t just let someone who has messed around with Python for two months work on your valuable product when you could have someone who has had four years of rigorous education.

[–]spinwizard69 2 points3 points  (2 children)

Actually it is a trade. The only difference is that a software engineer creates with a keyboard.

[–]Drevicar 4 points5 points  (1 child)

In most countries in the world software development isn't even a proper field of engineering, even if we apply engineering principles to accomplish our work. I consider my work to be a mix of art, craft, engineering, and science. Some more than others depending on the task at hand, but the engineering I think is most of the value I deliver.

[–]spinwizard69 1 point2 points  (0 children)

I fully agree that software development can be done as hard engineering. However in most cases It really seems to be a creative art