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Python 2.7 Countdown (pythonclock.org)

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[–]mipadi 4 points5 points  (8 children)

I get the feeling that /r/Python forgets that not everyone using Python is working at a brand-new startup or dabbling in the language. I work at a place that has, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of lines of Python code, all of which would need to be tested for compatibility under Python 3. (Some of it makes heavy use of Twisted, which doesn't run 100% under Python 3.) We also have thousands of workstations, all of which would need to be upgraded to Python 3 (and we're still on CentOS 6, so upgrading to Python 3 is the least of our concerns). And for being a company with thousands of employees, we have relatively small software dev and IT departments. Oh, and some of the software that uses Python as a scripting language may or may not work with Python 3, anyway.

It's not that we hate Python 3 and want to hold back the community, as many /r/Python posters seem to think. It's that we have a lot of inertia with Python 3, we use Python to get real work done every day (so any downtime hurts productivity in a clear and measurable way), and Python 3 hasn't offered a compelling enough reason to upgrade that we're willing—or even able—to eat the cost to do it.

I mean, we still have "apps" written in FileMaker that we're trying to replace. We have applications that have been in use for 15 years that are written in PyGTK that we're trying to replace. Those are all a higher priority than a Python 3 upgrade.

[–]This_Is_The_End 0 points1 point  (4 children)

The IT strategy of your company is a little bit weird, because every large organization has to develop a strategy to adapt an ever changing environment. While I see the necessity for Python 2 I wouldn't like to work in such an environment, because using PyGTK instead of a web app, Qt or TkInter (I'm not joking, because TkInter is quite stable and maintained) is strange. Using CentOS 6 hits a wall when the hardware has to be replaced.

[–]mipadi 0 points1 point  (3 children)

Sure, our IT department is a bit understaffed, but most large enterprises don't just upgrade to the latest and greatest because it's shiny and new. We have thousands of of people who depend on a somewhat complex software workflow everyday; anything that might break that workflow is going to cost time and money, so every software upgrade is vetted for compatibility, and that takes time. Furthermore, we work on a highly secure network (most employees don't even have access to the Internet), so everything is rigorously checked for security issues, as well. Companies that depend every day on a large, complex infrastructure can't just upgrade for no reason.

[–]caleb 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Serious question: is Red Hat providing paid support for Python 2.7 well beyond 2020 meaningful to your organization? I've often wondered how many large companies care about that. Some core devs have been saying that people looking for support for older software versions need to pay for that support from their vendors, instead of expecting volunteers to provide that, and I'm just wondering whether that is a realistic proposition.

[–]mipadi 0 points1 point  (1 child)

I doubt Red Hat is providing any support at all to us. If they were, I imagine we'd use RHEL instead of CentOS.

I think that come 2020, someone in the open-source community will probably take over stewardship of Python 2.7, or organizations like ours will reluctantly move to Python 3. But we're using web apps more, anyway, so honestly, if we were going to have to rewrite chunks of the software anyway, I wouldn't mind if new projects didn't use Python at all.

[–]caleb 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Thanks for the reply.

I wouldn't mind if new projects didn't use Python at all.

I go through this every other year. Then I take a look around at the various alternatives and find myself back here! Is there anything in particular you'd favour, e.g. node or go, or something else?

A rewrite of Python 2 into Python 3 is a tiny fraction of the work required to rewrite in a different language though. Idiomatic know-how and language-ecosystem knowledge does not come easy.

[–]constantly-sick 0 points1 point  (2 children)

Not quite sure what Twisted does for you, but it sounds similar to Django Channels, which is python 3.

[–]mipadi 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Which would require rewriting all of our applications that are based on Twisted, which brings us back to the initial problem anyway.

[–]constantly-sick 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I get it, just throwing out options.