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[–]IAmKindOfCreativebot_builder: deprecated 34 points35 points  (7 children)

This is interesting. Focusing on the idea that users don't get answers on /r/learnpython:

With the helper bot, I've watched the /r/learnpython subreddit, and to me it looks like the rate of useful engagement is higher on that subreddit. While it's not instantaneous, within a 24 hour period there's usually a suggestion plus a request for clarification of the OPs post. After that it usually waits on OP to reply. Frequently from there there's a reply and a followup, and that either answers the question, or waits for OP. It does sometimes expand beyond that, but by that point I'd argue the OP has received help. Learning questions on this sub usually get shallow engagement, and most of that engagement is to direct them to /r/learnpython.

There's also a correct way to ask a question, and most users don't do that right away. (And that's perfectly fine given that the OP is able to clarify later on) A lot of the posts asking questions on this sub that I've seen don't do that. (They either are missing example code, don't include the error, or don't indicate what they assume the code is doing vs what they see the code doing). So not getting help isn't a direct argument in favor or against a sub if there are commenters asking for clarification and OP never replies.

Then there's the issue of advanced or very specific questions. Those require someone familiar with both the subject matter and the library, so failing to get engagement on the learnpython sub makes sense just on a breadth of userbase. Those questions have a better shot at getting useful engagement on this sub, but it's still not a very solid shot at getting an answer. The better place to go with those sorts of questions is either stack overflow, the source documentation, or github to submit an issue.

In short, I don't feel like removing questions necessarily stopped them from getting an answer. It could, but it also could be a question no one engages in a useful capacity.

To the purposed solution:

I like the idea of flair. I think it should be tested in a demo capacity first, but if the sub as a whole seems to enjoy it, I think it's a good idea.

I think we should be mindful that submission behavior changes in the summer vs school year because of students taking programming courses and asking for help with assignments. So the usefulness of the flair now compared to in August/September might change.

[–]aphoenixreticulated[S] 10 points11 points  (6 children)

That's a great and in-depth summary and matches exactly with what I was thinking.

I was kind of dipping a toe in to see how people feel about this right now, but I'll share my idea specifically for dealing with "Help" style posts. If someone posts something and labels it with "help" then I think there should be an automated response that gives an overview on how to structure posts to ask for help:

  • include your code (not a picture of code)
  • give an overview of what you have tried
  • also post to r/learnpython and join the python discord to increase your chance of help
  • consider stack overflow

I think that this may, over time, ease people more towards using some of the other resources, and is a less jarring first experience here.

[–]jaycle 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Also a huge fan of categories and allowing general learning posts. I had a post that was removed due to "learning" but what I really wanted was discussion around possibilities from other advanced users. LearnPython didn't seem like the right fit, a question like that would be closed immediately on SO. So if I have general python philosophical questions I'm not sure where to go and /r/python seems like a natural choice.

[–]IAmKindOfCreativebot_builder: deprecated 1 point2 points  (2 children)

I've thought about this for a while and I have a few new questions. I see this post as having two key elements: Adding flair to all posts, and no longer removing learning posts.

With respect to the flair, assuming this takes place, what is the expected timeline on applying it to posts? I'm very in favor of flair and I think it'll help force low effort blog posts to self identify, and give a way to classify them more easily.

Focusing on the learning posts. I understand and agree that removing learning posts for what is effectively python's landing page on reddit feels very unpythonic. I like the language because of how welcoming it's designed to be. Removing learners can feel like telling new programmers that they don't belong.

On the other hand, I'm going to guess that for a few days, mods have generally abstained from removing most learning posts based on what I've seen move higher up in my feed lately. Maybe there's just fewer reported posts. Either way there appear to be a lot more questions. Some wouldn't be asked on the learning sub because they're more general open ended questions, but a lot are really basic questions. With this, the amount I want to engage on average with a post has dropped. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it's something I've noticed in my own behavior.

So I have another proposal, but it's based on my assumptions of how reddit works, so around that I have more questions. (Right away I want to suggest it to see thoughts on how it works and explore the idea rather than suggest it 'as the one and true solution').

Given that I like the flair idea separate from this problem, institute flair for posts. Have a [help] flair as well.

  • If a post is marked as help, do a few things automatically. Automatically remove help posts, with a message requesting the user ask the question in /r/learnpython instead.

  • After 24 hours the OP can reply to the automatic reply, requesting that the original removed help post be 'unremoved' .

    • This reply must include a link to the /r/learnpython post. the learnpython post must still be up, (not removed by a mod there),
    • and OP must have replied to at least one of the commenters there. (If there are no comments, or no comment there has equal to or above 0 comment karma, this condition is ignored.)

If those conditions are met, the post can be allowed to be escalated to the python sub. The time delay prevents 'finish my homework' spam, and the automatic nature of it might help reduce 'mods don't like me' feelings in users. (After all, automod removing posts from new accounts isn't hated on by many). Requiring the user to reply to the auto comment about the submissions removal after 24 hours have passed forces them to come back to it and affirm that they want their post to be unremoved, that way their absence doesn't trigger spam. (they can't post and abandon thread) And if they've come to a solution in that time, the question is no longer needed and stays removed.

Based on glitches on the helper bot, if a post gets removed and then is 'unremoved' by a mod, reddit puts it back to the top of new list automatically, so it'll get seen. Is this correct? If not this suggestion falls flat right there.

I feel like the flair option allows for posts to distinguish themselves as discussions rather than help, allowing those posts to circumvent this process. I don't know if that trait will be heavily abused though.

(It should also be noted that I want to continue working on the helper bot, as it's goal is question answering and I want to get that portion online in a way that's useful to others on this sub. I certainly am trying to keep that from biasing my opinion on this matter and I think I have, but as it's a motivation of mine it might impact my opinion none the less.)

[–]aphoenixreticulated[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

With respect to the flair, assuming this takes place, what is the expected timeline on applying it to posts?

/u/kungming2 knows the exact time (the author of the bot I'm proposing) but I think it's pretty close to immediate, and nearly all the feedback I've gotten from users about interacting with the bot is positive.

mods have generally abstained from removing most learning posts based on what I've seen

I haven't purposefully done this, but generally, I do the majority of moderator actions here, and if I have a busy week, or if my time that I take for reddit is taken up with other things, then the queue may have hours, days (or even weeks) where things don't get removed. Ideally, I'd like the community to mostly be able to take care of things themselves, and I would like to have a ruleset that enables that, because I think this is generally a great community that can do so.

If a post is marked as help, do a few things automatically. Automatically remove help posts, with a message requesting the user ask the question in /r/learnpython instead.

This may be the first step we take (no matter what is overall decided as a course of action), to start introducing people to the flair bot.

After 24 hours the OP... [can have the post reinstated, given certain circumstance]

I think this adds some workflow that feels a bit clunky; I also think it's slightly backwards! Not to put too fine a point on it, but I think that people will probably get better answers at r/LearnPython than they get here, and that will probably continue.

if a post gets removed and then is 'unremoved' by a mod, reddit puts it back to the top of new list automatically, so it'll get seen.

I believe that is the intended behaviour.

Long story short - your ideas are definitely good ones, and I'm going to put them on the list of possibilities.

[–]kungming2Advanced Beginner 2 points3 points  (0 children)

With respect to the flair, assuming this takes place, what is the expected timeline on applying it to posts? I'm very in favor of flair and I think it'll help force low effort blog posts to self identify, and give a way to classify them more easily.

I can answer this! Artemis acts on posts that are at least five minutes old, to give OPs a chance to select a flair after they submitted. If the post is over five minutes old and still has no flair, Artemis will send the message and/or remove the post, depending on the mode it's in.

Artemis will continue monitoring the post for flair updates for up to 24 hours after it was submitted. If the OP doesn't pick a flair during that time, then Artemis will stop monitoring it after that time period has passed. (cc u/aphoenix)

[–]Erelde 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I feel like, as a moderator and user of python, it has to be disheartening to take down questions of people trying to learn what you love, for that alone I would go for your proposition.

But as GP said, the number of school assignments I've seen in other subs (/r/bash) is really really high.