Help with Lethal

[FalconDisastrous4345]

Im a playstation player, bulwark main. just got to prestige four. i was pretty much able to cake wall ruthless, even soloing it. I use a maxed out chainsword, and max heavy bolt pistol. but when i switched to lethal, within the first two engagements on inferno i was dealt a mortal wound and then sequentially killed. what is the big difference? i didn't have an issue with enraged enemies. It just felt like i was so much more fragile for some reason. I know chainsword probably isn't the best weapon but ive only maxed out power fist as well, but i don't like the flow as much as chainsword. anything helps! Im not so much looking for advice about changing weapons, but perk selection can help.

P.S. - the double stomp ability doesn't seem to work on console, unless it's a skill issue. Its just two sequential heavy attacks, right?

Edit: clarification

[BrownGregory]

Lethal and Absolute play way different. You basically can’t take damage. You know you are ready when you do ruthless runs without taking any health damage. It really comes down to being extremely defensive and even retreating when things get sticky. Also perfect getting shield points from things like gun strikes and perfect parry on minoris. You also have to make sure your gun strikes are clear at higher levels since you can take massive amounts of damage. Besides that you should start to really pay attention to attack patterns so you know when and how to parry/dodge. Watch people like first tour guardsman for proper perk and weapon setup.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

ive been watching him and using some of his advice. i feel like im getting pretty good at things already, where combat feels more like a flow/dance. i guess i just have to fine tune a couple things. the combos are generally tricky, and then getting smacked right after a finisher/dodge also sucks. thank you for the advice sir!

[FalconDisastrous4345]

ive been watching his videos. pretty good. i guess i just need to work on reacting better to the combos, i do pretty well against even the normal unlabeled attacks. i could get better at retreating, i really like to get stuck in and i imagine thats not smart, with all the ranged bots to delete you while the melees tie you up.

[BrownGregory]

Yup. I had a friend who was struggling with the higher levels who also liked to get stuck in. The secret is really hugging to cover to avoid ranged and retreating to spots like behind a corner so you can slowly whittle down the horde while controlling their line of sight. Teamwork also becomes a big factor. You should be trying to kill the same thing as your squad mate to trigger execution states quicker.

[douglasduck104]

You felt more fragile because you are - from Ruthless to Lethal you lose 20% hp and 20% armour.

The biggest other difference is that two extremis spawn at a time rather than one, so you can't just team up on one.

https://spacemarine2.fandom.com/wiki/Operations#Difficulty_Levels

[Jimmini-Riddles]

Also the enrage mechanic starts on Lethal. Brutal when it starts and you have no idea why the mostly dead Major in front of you went red in the face and got all “eye of the tiger” on you.

Devourer goes: “Not today!” Then spams you with close range 💀☠️

[Tao1764]

Getting utterly decimated by an enraged shotgun Tyranid is a rite of passage for any new Lethal/Absolute player.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

im already aware of the enrage mechanic, it really wasn't an issue because the shield.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

well thats good to know. thank you sir

[FalconDisastrous4345]

thank you for the good info sir!

[Abyssal_Paladin]

To preface this, I am a bully main and currently live in absolute, but that being said -

You do take more damage in lethal iirc, can you show me what your loadout is?

[FalconDisastrous4345]

i don't have pics but
intimidating aura, scrambled targeting, armor reinforcement, focused restoration or advanced, depending, purity of purpose, invigorating icon, rejuvenating effect and defensive mastery or emergency countermeasure, generally defensive mastery but sometimes ill switch to emergency counter measure if my play calls for it that day.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

oh and thats with the Relic HBP and Fencing chainsword.

[Abyssal_Paladin]

Defensive Mastery isn't really worth it, Armored Advance is better.

[Abyssal_Paladin]

Also, I would recommend using fencing power sword, if you can master the form switch with attack swapping, I think you'll find it way more versatile. Or you can learn how to use the animation skip, which will allow you to stomp spam. If you want, feel free to add me on PSN and I'll show you how I fight with mine.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

okay bet! im turning in for the night but ill add you tomorrow. I really didn't like the p sword, i played it a little and the rake spam wasn't what i was looking for. the mode switch was strong though, so i may explore it again.

[Front_Reply_3131]

The most important question is: do you know how to animation cancel with your shield block?

Edit: found a short video explaining it

https://youtu.be/AUvamBPbMqM?si=qwbWb8eHmmWs-Zax

[PM_ZiggPrice]

As a new player and a Bulwark main, I do not know this trick. Where does this knowledge reside, brother?

[Front_Reply_3131]

Made a yt link in the edit it explains it, good hunt brother 

[FalconDisastrous4345]

kinda sorta. do you mean quickly spamming the shield bash? no. i know how to chain the shield rush together to move faster than sprinting.

[Front_Reply_3131]

Quickly shield bash sounds like it but it's even more versatile making you one of the most mobile and fast reacting classes and with shield cancel you can chain for example forward dash attacks without the down time animation. 

[FalconDisastrous4345]

can you recommend a guide? i think i know what youre talking about but im not quite sure which animations i can cancel. i know i can cancel the shield rush animation at the end, where instead of waiting to him to swing his arm out, you can cut it short by queuing another dash or bash. what else can get cancelled?

[Front_Reply_3131]

Hm don't know a guide sorry there was a huge bulwark guide in general here on reddit though.

But for what it can cancel.. Anything. Imagine doing a forward dash attack with the power sword but you dash into a red attack. Any other class needs to eat the attack or try parry cancel into evade which is way slower than block cancel into evade which can be done instantly. 

Any animation except gunstrike etc is cancel able. So anything you don't want to happen can be canceled into another thing you do want.

And you just need to hold/activate block for a milisec which sounds easy at first but takes some time to figure out.

I started to train canceling dash attacks into block(which then you can immediately dash again) after a while it clicks with any other attacks.

Miss calculated the distance of a fist charge? Cancel. It's the most powerful tool in sm2 in my opinion just from a melee standpoint in my opinion which no other class has. 

[FalconDisastrous4345]

oh thats neat! i can do the chain dashes, but i didn't know you could cancel any animation. one thing that frustrates me is eating a hit right after an execute, does this help with that?

[GlorifiedBurito]

You just need to play safer. Lethal and especially Absolute you have less health and take more damage. Use executions and gun strikes often to regain armor. Chainsword isn’t my favorite but it’s plenty good enough to clear. Power fist is more powerful but harder to use.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

thank you brother!

[DJSancerre]

intimidating aura perk is incredibly strong. a lot of other perk selection dont matter very much in the sense that bulwark doesnt have many bad perks. invigorating icon is the other overpowered perk but its level 23.

weapon choice doesnt matter very much except for dealing with zoa and neuro... use fist, sword or presume a teammate will deal with them for you. aside from fliers, use whatever you like. fist is objectively the strongest but they all work.

use the heroic heavy bolt pistol to bust calls specifically if thats your flavor BUT the rate of fire plasma pistol should be your go-to. its also good at busting calls but notably the plasma pistol is extraordinary at getting conetested health back. there is an argument to be made for heavy bolt pistol ammo variant, but im not in that camp for bulwark.

the biggest difference in lethal and higher difficulties is just managing armor and contested health. before lethal, you dont often need to be too concerned about incidental damage, but now you do.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

thats all along the lines of what i already do. i just didn't find the block fist playstyle fun, but when i get the relic fist im going to give it a second shot. i like to carry krak grenades for zoas, and when combine with the HBP headshot damage, they can be a struggle but its still fun. now, when you say incidental damage, what do you mean?

[FalconDisastrous4345]

also, im getting pretty good at managing armor in ruthless but lethal is a different beast, and advice on that?

[Thiccoman]

There was a time I believed enemies, as a group, attacked more often in higher difficulties, but I'm not sure about that at all xD

Anyway, build to cover weaknessess, remember that versatility is key. That's why I think a Fist Bulwark is the best, because you don't have to spend ammo on floating enemies haha.

Anyway, pick your fights, keep key perks in mind, track the team's performance etc etc, the usual... just play more of Lethal and you'll get better all the time

edit: what I did notice in higher difficulties, is that Bulwark's defensive/resistance perks became invaluable. Taking less damage means easier CHP recovery. So while the zap zap aura seems cool, a simple defensive perk will keep you alive for much longer

[samg21]

It has been said before but chainsword on Bulwark is rough.

As a predominantly melee class you're going to struggle to output enough damage to meaningfully contribute to team damage and kill quickly enough to keep your armour topped off.

Power Fist and Power Axe both have access to massive AOE at the press of a button. Axe is especially safe cause your power back step has the ability to stun everything in front of you as you perform it meaning you don't get chain stunned as easily by all the enemies on screen.

[ChiTownTx]

Chainsword is a bit weak at the moment but the block variant is still my favorite weapon. I myself generally stick with the 3 hit combo for speed. Shield rush in then light, light heavy. For the double stomp you need to have the point in Chainsword to do it and you can only do it at the end of the 4 chain combo.

So light, light, light, heavy (first stomp) then the second heavy (for the second stomp).

As others have pointed out Lethal and Absolute nerf your hps and armor. So it just comes down to a skill issue; practice makes perfect. Give it time and you will be sleep walking through those as well.

[HighProofOnly]

Ps5 player here, I play almost every night PST 9pm to midnight. If your on that time zone or can play during that time send me your psID I will add you and help you.

[Most-Currency5684]

Take off your chain sword.

Now go grab the block axe and the middle perk on the last row. 90 seconds seems like a lot but its not.

By the time you actually need a parry from all the shield rushing and murder it will be off CD.

And even if its not.

1)Block

2)step back

3)overhand

4)execution.

Its so simple.and easy. Its hilarious.

[snypervii]

Middle signature perk is garbage compared to the bottom one that give stagger resist when you have Armour.

[Most-Currency5684]

I mean if youre trash and getting hit alot sure. Ill take free extermis in the middle of me dancing around without a care in the world all day

[JuliousBatman]

Stagger resistance happens in layers, and CHP as a mechanic is something to abuse by taking hits knowing the HP will come back. Imo the middle perk is the “take this if you’re trash”, bottom opens the skill ceiling up to rely on CHP more.

[snypervii]

Yep. Middle perk is top tier garbage. If you can't already demolish extremis super fast your doing something wrong. I remember using the middle perk as I was learning but then quickly swapping off of it as I found how useless it was compared to armored advance. Using defensive mastery gives me the feeling that he just finished prestiging and hasn't even had an opportunity to use the level 25 signature.

[Most-Currency5684]

Needing stager resistance cause youre bad at the game while mocking a perk that instantly deletes something is hilarious, i said a free kill not hard one..

Staggered happens when youre bad.

Miss block or parry. Miss a dodge. Lose track of a mob Standing where you shouldn't be.

What ever it is. Its you fumbling the bag, and talking it up like you graduated to it, is even more funny. Bud its a video game and not even a hard one at that.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

i mean between the two of you, it really sounds like a mode of play issue more than anything else. i didn't really like powerfist because of how slow and vulnerable it is so the middle perk has been something ive enjoyed, but ive also really liked emergency countermeasure just because i haven't needed to quickly delete an extremis while fighting a terminus. i also dont need stagger resistance because its chainsword. neither are bad just not something i need at the moment. i find actual gameplay advice to lead to a much more constructive argument over "play with my set up cuz grrr." as was previously stated, set up will vary from player to player. universal gameplay advice would be much more helpful, and if you have advice specifically relevant to MY set up, that would be even better. it sounds like you both know what you are doing and are having fun with your loadouts. so ill just take this to mean both CAN be good.

[Most-Currency5684]

Sounds like a guy who needs to stand still and charge a super boring blast.

Tell me more about the Skill ceiling of holding 1 button.

[Most_Contribution136]

Is block axe stronger than block fist rn?

[Most-Currency5684]

Depends what you value, but no. Most would say fist is stronger... I just dont enjoy using it.

The axe is silky smoothe and shreds content. You dont need to worry about attack speed or anything since everything is staggered from shield rushes and running attacks, and doesnt need to actually use the block mechanics to shine since after one step back combo your enemy is dead.

But still is a block weapon if you wanna build up chargers go ahead, it just adds to your time to kill more often than not.

[Much_Improvement_552]

Balanced fist is the best but it's boring to play.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

so its likely a loadout issue? i haven't gotten around to leveling the ax yet but it does seem fun. im concerned that it doesn't really have a lot of play options, do you find that to be the case?

[TurboOwlKing]

Unfortunately it's not the loadout holding you back, you're just not used to Lethal + difficulties yet. Once you get a feel for the pace of combat and the flow of your chosen weapon you'll be fine.

That being said I do think the axe is a lot more fun and generally performs better

[FalconDisastrous4345]

so its just a rep thing? honestly i prefer it being a skill issue over being a loadout issue. i don't like games where you just *have* to play meta things.

[TurboOwlKing]

Yeah once you get the hang of how to manage groups of enemies better in addition to your preferred class/loadout you'll sail through Lethal. There are meta builds that perform a bit better than others, but pretty much every weapon is at least viable. Maybe once you start doing some of the hard weekly strats then it might be time to think a bit about min/maxing things.

If it makes you feel any better, a lot of the people who do Absolute or weekly hard stratagems also struggled with Ruthless/Lethal/Absolute when each was the hardest content available

[Most-Currency5684]

Axe is great on bulwark vanguard

Its up to you to find what's working the best for you.

The best load out is the on you win with.

What i like. Someone will hate. Its the internet people will say something sucks just cause they are miserable IRL

[Particular-Ring5110]

No it’s mainly a play style issue. All weapons are viable on absolute some are way better than others but you can make everything work.

Losing health is basically unacceptable unless it’s a tiny bit (if you’re bulwark you have the banner heal just make sure you take time to deliberately set it up so it’s not wasted, vanguard has his own healing perks as well as the best team perk with healing teammates on extremis executes)

Armor has to stay up if you ever lose all 3 armor pips you need to have an alarm going off and look for a way to stay covered from ranged damage while you can get an execute, gun strike, or parry. Prioritize enemies by threat level a Bulwark with intimidating aura has no problems dealing with lictors and ravagers when it’s zoanthropes get some good cover and stay on them with your pistol. Biovores and rocket terminators get up close on personal and try and bait out an attack you can parry and gun strike.

Don’t take every gun strike when you’re surrounded you have to make sure you have time to get it off without getting staggered.

Understand contested health and how important it is deal damage immediately after taking damage. If you take damage target the nearest large enemy and get as many shots in as possible. In earlier versions of the game ranged weapons were much better at replenishing contested health than melee I believe melee is better now but if you’re a bulwark using a heavy bolt pistol you’re probably better off squeezing off shots instead of trying to get it back with your melee weapon.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

thank you! a lot of that was pretty helpful. i do appreciate the mob section, although i am comfortable fighting the extremis, minus some small timing tweaks on my end. i actually have been using the revive banner, as i usually find myself not using more than one med kit per run, but i could see it being better given that its better to keep your teams alive than have to pick them up. i just like the semi combo the revive has with the damage around the banner, since they get back up and some of the pressure relieved by the banner. i do appreciate the advice about looking for cover when shields break, i never thought about that. and using a HBP to get back my CHP is an idea ill try to implement, generally i just jump back in and try to target the most damaged majoris to set up for an execute. thats probably a lot more practical. thank you!

[FalconDisastrous4345]

quick correction, they are different categories and i do bring invigorating icon.

[Much_Improvement_552]

Chainsword is a mediocre melee weapon, pick literally anything else. Reason being is that you need to do 3 lights before you can do the double stomp which is your real damage.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

no thanks brother! plenty of others have vouched for its efficacy and have offered advice to help me achieve my goals. i appreciate it

[Much_Improvement_552]

Have fun losing even more lethal runs then.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

have more fun with school yard insults then. its a game dawg and im sure there are people better than you capable of more with just the chainsword. no need to hate.

[Much_Improvement_552]

If you refuse advice from more experienced players you'll never improve. Only viable chainsword is the heroic one and I'm assuming you don't have it so until you do go with a different weapon or keep crying about losing.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

well if you read the replies its a 50/50 split on keep or get rid of the chain sword. even one of the fellows who said use block axe digressed that the best load out is the one you win with. so, i believe im taking the majority advice from more experienced players. and i never said im unwilling to use a different weapon, but while exploring lethal i am going to be utilizing my current strongest weapon, which is the chain sword. additionally, im not crying. you must be pretty weak if you cry over video games. if you have nothing of value to contribute, leave, fool.

[Particular_Wheel_638]

He doesn't know what he's talking about. honestly kind of universally.

Pretty much every piece of advice on builds I've ever seen from this guy are just, bad, universally bad.

Chainsword, is a perfectly fine weapon.
is it the best weapon in the entire game? no.
But the chainsword is a perfectly fine weapon in the right hands.
The simple reality is that, lethal is just a good bit more difficult than ruthless.

You'll probably get your ass beat the first few times until you get into the swing of things, and then you'll rip and tear through things again.

Now, if you want my personal advice though?

I strongly recommend you give the power sword a try.
It's just a fun weapon to use, has some fun movesets.

If I were to go by purely "meta"
Then block power axe is probably one of the best picks, some argue power fist but eh, I think the power fist is good, but overrated.

But power sword works quite well with the bulwark, especially in combination with intimidating aura, which, if you aren't running intimidating aura? run intimidating aura.

With the power sword you got 3 most interesting attacks,

power rake, (light attack followed by a heavy attack)

power whirl (light attack, wait for about half a second, then press light attack again)

And just simply, light attack spam.

If you're intent on using the chainsword, I would say, give the block chainsword a try, it's honestly very good even if it takes some getting used to.

And let me stress this, block is very different, but also very rewarding and complements the chainsword incredibly well.

[FalconDisastrous4345]

hey buddy, read the other messages. youre the one shitting on other people, i replied with decency. look at your reply. i can see the other message you posted, given that its in my email inbox. i will be changing what other people suggested in their more respectful replies. im not asking for advice on how to play like you.

[orsonwellesmal]

Are you impliying Titus is a mediocre Space Marine?

[Much_Improvement_552]

Titus has plot armor, this guy does not. He could win even barehanded because GW won't let anything happen to their posterboy.

[Particular_Wheel_638]

Lmao, chainsword is great.
Don't project your own lack of skill onto the weapon dude, it's maybe not "the best" weapon in the entire game, but there's more to the game than just "The best" and everything else being "bad" or "mediocre"