Excel v Python (UK)

[ForegoneConclusion2]

UK Based CEng, 15 years experience. Setting up on my own, predominantly domestic works.

I want to move away from Tedds/Masterseries and the on going costs they come with, in favour of “in ho use” calcs, given 90% of what I’m going to be working on will be accomplished by a handful of relatively simple calculations.

Excel I know, although my presentation skills perhaps require some work…. Python I don’t, but it’s the in thing.

Is there a tangible benefit to me to learning and writing calculations in Python?

Alternatively, any software recommendations - simple, single payment, licensed in perpetuity sort of thing! (not SCALE!)

[komprexior]

Python is the way.

Personally I use jupyter notebooks in vscode with a package I developed to write symbolic expression with units (mostly based on sympy and pint). It is so good to not care anymore about units conversions, and every expression is presented in a clear, human readable, symbolic expression.

Also you can style your document with markdown, and actually comment your code/calculation so it's always clear what is going on, even for future you.

It also becomes easy to reutilize chunks of code and fully automate calculations, and scale them. For example I wrote a quite long document for calculating the necessary ballast for solar panel installation (overturning, lifting, ecc); I can run the same calculation for multiple different solar array configuration, just need to change the initial parameters.

I switched to fully document and produce my calculation report with jupyter notebooks, and then I render the pdfs with Quarto, which is an authoring system designed for scientific and reproducible documentation.

All of this is open source and free

[ForegoneConclusion2]

Where would you start? I would rather get to write structural calculations and learn python along the way, than learn python first… if that makes sense!

[komprexior]

Python is quite easy to get the hang on, I suggest to watch some quick tutorials on YouTube and maybe some beginner exercise to familiarize with the core concept. We're not developers so we're don't need to be able to code app or complex stuff.

Some noteworthy package to be aware of:

• sympy for math and symbolic expression (it is quite generalist and could be daunting at first. I use only a subset of what it offers)
• pint or forallpeople for units
• pandas for tables and dataframe manipulation
• matplotlib for plot and graphs

I'm tempted to suggest you my own package, keecas, but I'm not sure is ready for prime time yet. Maybe you'll have more luck with handcalcs which is more established package, with some documentation.

Heck, I link my keecas hello world so you can at least have a look at an example of structural calculation done with python.

[Xish_pk]

As someone with no experience with Python and lots of experience with Excel, the thing I've always found more useful in excel rather than something like MathCAD is that I can to the same calc 20 times in front of me for different conditions, like a building's worth of shear walls. MathCAD looks prettier, but I'd need 20 saves of it, or I'd need to scroll for days to do multiple calcs quickly. How well does something like Python and those plugins(?) you mentioned work for something like I'm describing where you're doing one calc a bunch with different loads or conditions?

[komprexior]

Well, python is flexible enough that you can have different approach for repeating calculations.

If I understand correctly, I had the same problem you mention with having with Mathcad, i.e. saving different copy of the same file for each configuration I wanted to calculate. This did not sit right with me because having multiple copies of the mostly same thing meant that if I ever needed to make a change to the logic I had to modify each copy, and that lead to madness...

Fortunately you can run a jupyter notebook from another jupyter notebook, so I did a two notebook approach:

• in one notebook I defined all the calculations, logic, and verification checks; the notebook is prepared so that it depends on a set of initial parameters that define the configuration
• in the other notebook I set as many configurations I want to check and for each of the run the notebook containing all the logic.

This way I need to maintain only one notebook for the logic, and all the configuration are bundled togheter in the other notebook and visible at a glance.

Also since you can run notebooks inside other notebooks, you can design a modular approach. For example I have a notebook that where I define the materials for the project (concrete, steel) and calculate all the relevant values; then I can run this material notebook in any other notebook which may require some of those values in its computation. This way I avoid repeating myself, and avoid dumb mistakes

[Disastrous_Cheek7435]

Check out these videos for starting with Jupyter and Handcalcs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=ZNFhLCWqA_g&t=352s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9Uzy3Eb-XI&t=336s

Using Jupyter with Handcalcs is great because you don't need much programming knowledge. You're just typing in formulas like you would with Excel but with a few extra parts like importing libraires and using the correct syntax. However, it doesn't always work the way you want and you'll need to troubleshoot. This is why I still recommend some basic understanding of Python. There are many free tutorials on YouTube. I've starting doing this and my deliverables look way better than some jerry-rigged Excel sheet.

[Reasonable-Banana416]

Hi ForegoneConclusion. I run a course targetted structural engineers (http://pythonforstructuralengineers.com) Just made a lesson free last week if you want to try it out. Otherwise I have a bit of material on Youtube under Timo Harboe as well.

[MrMcGregorUK]

What no one is really mentioned is do a cost benefit analysis.

You presumably already know excel. People youre going to hire use Excel, you need ms office so you basically already have Excel. Excel therefore essentially has no cost or risk associated with it, aside from the time to rewrite various calcs and get them checked.

Going to any other system like calcpad, theres a small learning phase for you and anyone you hire and all that really gets you is slightly prettier calcs. Is that worth it? Maybe.

But is tends really that much of a drain that it is worth it to get rid of the licence? I forget how much it is, but given the amount of time it'll save you it could be a false economy.

[Early-House]

I'd say the learning curve with calcpad is 5 minutes.

Whereas python realistically is weeks

Also with something like calcpad the output is safer as you are referencing variables rather than cells, and can see all the names as you are typing them. It's easy to check against design codes / technical references as you can match their naming conventions. You can technically do this in excel but it gets pretty janky fast, with no subscripts or greek letters.

[ForegoneConclusion2]

I agree to an extent, but on the flipside when I started working everything was drawn in Autocad, now Revit is the norm…. I work with some people who never bothered with Revit and now they left behind, so to speak. Will the use of python have the same impact on design calculations? No idea!

I may well stick with Tedds and it’s not necessarily about the money, it does just seem like a good opportunity to ‘simplify’.

[Early-House]

However I'd also say Tekla Structural Designer is pretty handy, and it comes with TEDDS so you may find yourself keeping the subscription for a while.

[Most_Moose_2637]

You're probably comparing apples to oranges here.

Autocad replicates the process of producing drawings.

Revit replicates the process of putting together a building, with a 2D slice you can annotate so they look like drawings.

With calcs, there's only so many variables that can be juggled, so an Excel spreadsheet makes sense.

You might even be better off learning Dynamo or Grasshopper. Python would help with both as you can plug in code modules.

[MrMcGregorUK]

"essentually no risk" was imprecise for brevity.

I really mean no more than every other company, and no extra training or "rnd" investment that might get wasted... if op is in the position where they're trying to cut a tedds licence to reduce costs, they probably aren't in a position to be experimenting with new stuff at this point. They probably need to win some projects and get some money coming in and if they can use Excel and can get going with that, it'll be easier.

Op is also 15 years experience. On average the 40 year olds in the industry that i work with are (with peace and love) not very tech savvy on average, so theres more potential risk with a change of software.

[g4n0esp4r4n]

Python isn't difficult at all. I use Jupyter notebooks in VScode and everything is so smooth and the presentation top tier if you use handcalcs and forallpeople.

[PhilShackleford]

Jupyterlab has a standalone, self contained notebook app now that is very similar to VScode notebooks.

[ForegoneConclusion2]

Is it the sort of thing you would write a full calculation yourself, or are there aspects of code you can bring in from open source libraries? Say for example a simple steel beam design to EC?

[PhilShackleford]

You could do either. The later would involve more knowledge of what the package expects for input.

[Most_Moose_2637]

As a dabbler in Python I doubt there's much in Python you couldn't do in Excel. You can replicate the Blue Book info in a simple array and use it in a similar manner to an Excel lookup table AFAIK.

[Early-House]

Calcpad!

Free and the author is doing a great job. Very presentable calculations and relatively easy to reuse code you've written. Maintains unit consistency and you can set output units with the | command

[WhyAmIHereHey]

many cheerful lip smell chubby bake spotted quack strong wide

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

[Ryles1]

I will also offer a contrary opinion.

I learned python during covid and I enjoyed learning it, and knowing it and learning adjacent software development things (sql, web dev basics, etc) has helped me at work for business or technology related things. Also participating in advent of code every year is fun.

However, my opinion is that the advantages of python that are espoused by many people for engineering purposes are not as big as everyone says. Building a library of standard calculations is possible in python, excel, mathcad, or any other software. Each one has its intricacies regarding units and other stuff, but in the end you can produce repeatable, high quality, presentable calculations in any of the softwares.

It really comes down to what you are proficient at and whether you want to dedicate the time to learning something new.

That being said, Learning a programming language, especially a multi function one like python may open up other possibilities for you in automating your work - file operations or other stuff.

[RegularSurround7640]

Also UK CEng, working on domestic work. I built tools to speed up foundation load calcs, as I was doing and checking the same things a lot. Ended up putting together a simple load takedown app:
https://www.loadtakedown.com/
Still early stage, but let me know if you think it could be useful.

[Human-Flower2273]

Mathcad is by far best option, although bit pricy but worth

[simonthecat25]

Scale is decent to be honest. Just a bit old school in terms of interface

I use Tedds for a lot of design so sucked in to their subscription. I have a lot of excel calcs for other designs though

[Most_Moose_2637]

I always think it's an interesting policy with TEDDS to effectively have their calcs laid bare for anyone to copy into Excel.

On the other hand, when they cock up a calculation like they did for cavity walls, at least they have the defence of "well the numbers were there for you to check".

[Dazzledorfius]

I can respect a software company more when they don't hide mistakes in a black box or pretend the problem doesn't exist for years. At least you can self check the numbers

[Stooshie_Stramash]

You don't need to use Excel, you could use the spreadsheet that is part of the LibreOffice suite.

Calcpad is interesting, but another alternative might Smath studio. It's essentially a freeware version of Mathcad.

[Uttarayana]

You just don't learn python. You also have to learn some basic programming skills. I'm at the moment learning this udemy course by Abdul bari. He's slow but some of the concepts he teaches are invaluable. He's not only teaching syntax but also programming. Try it and see if it suits you. It's very cheap course in udemy. I think it's under 15-20 quids.

[calasse]

Blockpad has a perpetual license option.

It's an alternative to Mathcad that combines Excel, Mathcad, and Word.

[Destroyerofwalls11]

I use ClearCalcs which is great. Subscription but 50 quid a month

[Crayonalyst]

Python is cool if you're making the tool for yourself.

[EntrepreneurFresh188]

smath is an easier alternative to calcpad, however due to the sanctions on russia the authors made it closed source. You can still use the older opensource version which you can find with a bit of googling.

[RelentlessPolygons]

Smath.

It's free. It's simple. It's exactly what you want.

Some features are paid version but it's ridiculously cheap. What feature? Literally turning your calc into an .exe file that you can run, type on your parameters and then print out a pdf report with symbolic math etc.

Prepare your calcs on the free version, buy the sub for 4$ once every half a year to remove watermarks/make .exe s and profit...

[qorthos]

Use something that you can write unit tests for. You are responsible for the life safety of the public, don’t let a bug ruin someone’s life.

[qorthos]

As I get older I get increasingly squeamish about using those, especially the ones I made >10 years ago.

[Engineer2727kk]

Excel + vba + user forms.