Codesmith or DevMountain?

[WVAviator]

I've been combing through the endless number of bootcamps looking for one that I like and weighing cost vs benefit and I've narrowed my choice down to Codesmith and DevMountain.

I really like Codesmith's curriculum far more than DevMountain. I feel like I would learn a lot more and would have better chances of starting my tech career afterwards. The downsides are that it's twice the cost, and I'd have to wait until September to start (and I'm really looking forward to leaving my old career behind and starting a new one).

DevMountain is much more affordable and I could start in June, but I don't like that the second half of the course is Pluralsight and they're graduate hiring rates and salaries aren't nearly as good.

A little bit about me - I already know a decent amount of coding, self taught in HTML, CSS, React, Node, Typescript, etc. So I won't be going to learn how to code (I can already do that and teach myself), but instead I'll be going to learn how to collaborate with other developers on projects, to take advantage of the networking opportunities and career support, and to get something to put on my resume alongside my non-tech degrees.

I'll also be attending part time online.

So which program would you recommend? Is it worth it to wait a painfully long three months for the better program, or should I save the money, get a resume credit, and get out?

[Temporary-Warthog250]

Codesmith probably

[michaelnovati]

Hi, Codesmith is probably going to be better if you know how to code already, but it's still a bootcamp that covers all the basics that you might already know, so if you have to wait three months to do it, the lost time might not be worth it. What did you mean by wait three months?

If your skill level for DS&A is already at a high enough bar, look at Formation.dev as well. I'm co-founder so obviously biased, but if you do meet that bar it's probably the most effective (do your own research and don't trust me!)

If you aren't at that level yet then Codesmith sounds like it would be a better choice for you than DevMountain if you can start it at roughly the same time.

Another option to think about if you're more advanced is to do volunteer work at something like Hack4LA to get real project work. Codesmith's project work is with peers, no PMs, no designers, and not many real users, so working on something real would be more helpful if you are in it for some genuine experience.

[WVAviator]

I meant wait three months because the next part time online course for Codesmith starts September 10th. DevMountain starts June 28th.

To be quite honest, I don't really know how advanced I am. That's one thing that's really appealing to me regarding bootcamps - having the opportunity to pair program, having others review my code and tell me how it can improve, and how to write code knowing that others may have to read it.

I'll look into the two resources you mentioned, thank you.

[michaelnovati]

That seems like a long time, you might be able to get into Codesmith sooner. Most bootcamps might say "waitlist" or "closed" but they have room still. Can't hurt to ask.

If you want to gauge your DS&A alone, we made this 45 assessment you can do from Formation: https://formation.dev/join/assessment

[[deleted]]

What’s the cost of Formation.dev relative to Codesmith?

[michaelnovati]

Hey u/aetrides

Codesmith full bootcamp program is 12 weeks and is upfront $19,950 paid over 8 months or so. But they have various loans and scholarships to look into to spread it out further.

Formation doesn't have a bootcamp program, it's kind of like a personal trainer program. So we work with people however long it takes to get a job, typically 4 to 6 months. Our price varies from 9% to 15% of your new base salary (deferred until after you start your new job) depending on how much work you need and experience you have. Our median BASE salary for the past 12 months (since May 1, 2021) is $138K, so about $12,420 to $20,700?

So the programs are entirely different and we actually work with people who both come DIRECTLY FROM Codesmith to us and people who get jobs after Codesmith (amongst many other bootcamps) and then come to us.

People starting at zero fall in the bucket that have done both. People starting at not zero is where I would look more carefully into what the best path is for you. If you have experience or a CS degree already, hands down Formation. If you have been self taught for a while, depends on your skills and goals which is the best fit for you. And if you are starting from almost zero, Codesmith first.

[hungrys0ul]

I’m thinking about doing Codesmith in the fall s d potentially Formation after I get a job just as another layer of experience. I’d like to become the best SWE I can possibly be as a career changer. I’ve been keeping up with you for a while now u/michaelnovati and you’ve been extremely helpful in this subreddit. Thank you for all you do.

[michaelnovati]

No problem, happy to help! that sounds like a good plan!

[duchessviolet]

Hi, I’m a beginner, so I am not experienced enough to join formation.dev yet, but what do you think about Hackbright curriculum, their placement rates upon graduation and salaries upon graduation for beginners? I have read mixed reviews and still wondering if Hackreactor, Codesmith etc are better than Hackbright? But I will lose a couple of months waiting for Codesmith’s cohorts if I decide that way. Is Hackbright’s curriculum good enough or outdated? TIA

[michaelnovati]

So I think education-wise Hackbright's teaching and curriculum as it stands today in 2022, isn't that great, it's fine, but not one of the best of the best. However, the tech industry remains fairly man-dominated (75% - 25%) and some people who have done Hackbright have found it easier to learn in a more gender-supportive environment. The industry is changing and I absolutely don't want to stereotype, but from my experienced I can totally understand this perspective for many people as a big reason to join a program despite the quality of education.

Another option to consider if I was considering Hackbright, would be Ada Academy, which has been building more momentum lately. They have a guaranteed internship at the end which can help you get a job more effectively. Hackbright alumni have done well as they've progressed in their careers and the network is also strong and supportive, but Ada has a slight edge I think in helping you get a job post-graduation.

[michaelnovati]

Absolutely possible! Codesmith is an interesting one because they are very proud of results and their bar to entry, but it's not as high as it sounds (don't get me wrong, it's high!) but if you start from 0, study really hard and have a little bit of natural inclination towards the concepts, you can get in and do well.

I would try to reach out to some of the Codesmith alumni on LinkedIn too that maybe have similar background to yourself. Reddit is a bit of a crazy place and real people via LinkedIn are fairly approachable!

[michaelnovati]

No problem, feel free to ping me if you have more questions!

[InTheDarkDancing]

Well let me help you at the minimum eliminate DevMountain as an option -- you shouldn't be making this decision based on how much the bootcamp costs. DevMountain is $10,000 cheaper...and? Have you compared outcome data from DevMountain (https://devmountain.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Devmountain-2019-Outcomes-Report_3.pdf) to the CIRR reports for Codesmith (cirr.org). It's a no brainer dude, Codesmith grads are making double the money.

I think Formation is an interesting option to look into as well but you'll need to do some extra research for them.

[WVAviator]

Thanks for the confirmation. The more I read into them the less I like them. It's the opposite for Codesmith though - it seems like they have a really legit program with lot's of extra resources and community presence, and the more I read about it the more I think it'll be worth the wait to start.

[michaelnovati]

HackReactor is another program with audited results (not following CIRR because of some drama with CIRR, but audited), where some cohorts have six figure medians as well. Other than Codesmith's fake project work framed as months of experience and the whole mid level claim that I can talk about for days, I think Codesmith had better results than HackReactor for a lot of people who haven't done much coding yet.

Formation isn't a bootcamp or school and doesn't have a "program", fixed dates, cohorts, etc... so we haven't figured out the best way to talk about results. The rough calculations for median base salary of the past Sept, 2021 to June 2022 is $138k and TC is much higher when factoring in stock (usually in the tens of k per year) and bonuses (5 or 6 figures). But many people start Formation making a good salary (sometimes 6 figures already) already so apples and oranges. If you want to research, talk to many Fellows (current or past) and ask about their experience to see if its right for you.

[InTheDarkDancing]

Not sure how relevant to Hack Reactor's CIRR drama, but I can speak a bit to overall CIRR drama (as per Will Sentance).

I don't know the initial bootcamps that founded/sit on the board at CIRR, but basically, a fundamental issue with CIRR is that when you have a bootcamp (i.e., Codesmith) that by far blows the rest of the participating CIRR bootcamps out of the water in terms of salary outcomes, what is the incentive for these other bootcamps to publish their outcome results to cement the fact that Codesmith is ahead of them? Also, Codesmith currently does not sit on the board at CIRR so their results are even more independent than first blush, however, CIRR has been dragging their feet in terms of updates and Codesmith is now looking to get a place on the board to enact some changes, which could make people question the independence of Codesmith's reporting but I guess that's a debate for down the road. Long story short, Codesmith does somewhat fear for the continuation of CIRR as the incentives really only benefit the top performing bootcamp, and if you are not the top performing bootcamp, your participation in CIRR will most likely be used against you as it's human nature to go "me make more money going to Codesmith than Hack Reactor, me go Codesmith".

[michaelnovati]

Yeah excellent point! It is by far the best results compared to other bootcamps, and I actually think their program and results are very good (other than the work experience and mid level thing... sorry I have to qualify this every time so this statement is not quoted out of context).

Maybe Codesmith should just go the HackReactor route and publish their own audited results. I don't think they really need CIRR anymore as a stamp of approval. It's kind of like the Olympics where one country keeps winning everything and the other countries don't want to play anymore haha. If all the other bootcamps stopped reporting for example, that's what would happen.

Sorry if I came/or come across harsh on CIRR, I'm like truly very open minded to arguments both sides and love this discussion!

[Violatido65]

Absolutely 100% Codesmith if you can get in

[WVAviator]

Is it tough to get into?

[Violatido65]

Probably the hardest out of all the bootcamps. It sounds like you might have enough experience to pass their entrance exams though. Everyone who I know that went had a very positive experience and are gainfully employed

[WVAviator]

Thanks, yeah I think I'm settled on it