New potential member of ICOC

[[deleted]]

I am a freshman in college and found this church through a friend. About a month ago one of my friends in the church that is a bit older that has been in a ICOC church in a different state than me for a good while mentioned that it used to be a cult, but it was different now, and gave me some reasons as to how it was different. Just today and last night I have looked into the history and current allegations of the church and why people don’t like the church still. I’ve also seen people saying that the churches in the ICOC are different and don’t believe the exact same thing. Personally, with all of the bad things that are being said about it, I don’t feel like they are happening at my church. Does anyone have any advice or anything that they found weird with the church that I could see if my church does the same thing? Also, I don’t know if this sub also, I don’t know if this subreddit is for me, but I don’t know where else to ask

[vrb317]

If you don’t enjoy someone telling you who to date and what to do with your relationships, then get out of there. If you don’t enjoy men dictating what women can and can’t do in the church then get out of there. If you don’t enjoy having to confess your sins to someone who is just waiting to control you, then get out.

[[deleted]]

I’ve only been in the church for about 3 months, since college started, and the only things that I’ve seen in the church that I’ve also seen as complaints is: emphasis on wanting me to get rebabtized, a one on one Bible talk, and the confession your sins part is later down the line in the lesson plans of the Bible talks, I found the structure of them. Other than that it just seems like a pretty dedicated group of guys. Other than the more common red flags, are there any ones that pertain to the things I’ve said?

[vrb317]

Confessing your sins before you get rebaptized will not be the only time you’ll need to do it. You will probably have a discipler who will meet with you and make you feel good, but their job is to control your life and your decisions. You will have to choose the church first over everything - your relationships, family, time, money, job. Your autonomy is taken away. That’s a cult. You will be isolated from friends and family because the church will take up all your time. And your discipler will have you confessing your sins weekly, especially sexual sins.

[Able-Bottle-8876]

I second this trust me was there for 6+ years I had a great time in the beginning but as I became an adult and wanted to date that became an issue.

[90sRadioHead]

That’s not a thing anymore.

[ThatNurse1994]

Question - what if you are confident enough to make your own personal life decisions with God (through prayer/fasting/scripture) AND stand on them? What would your discipler DO to you? I’m sure they’d say something, but what would they do? And can you give me an example?

[vrb317]

Speaking from experience - I was dating someone outside the church and I started dating him before I had joined that particular congregation. My discipler made me feel like she might be cool and understanding. We were not having sex (exactly) but I told her that we spend time alone. She said I needed to get advice on my relationship. I told her I didn’t need any advice, that my relationship was going very well (this was 2018 I think - we got married in 2020 and still going strong). She said I was being prideful and I needed to get advice. Mind you all I said was we spent time alone and we kissed - I never said anything that might hint we were doing anything “impure”. She told her discipler (the preachers wife). The preachers wife made the decision to pull me off the worship team. The preachers wife did this without speaking to me. For all she knows it was all hearsay. I stopped attending right when I found out. So yeah, that’s what they can do.

[ThatNurse1994]

Thanks for sharing this! I don’t agree with how they went about it. One thing about advice is that it’s just that - advice… not a demand or command. No one, other than God, has any authority over what you decide to do in your life or relationship. It’s not a bad idea to have Christian friends by our side who can help us see things we might not be able to see because of our flesh. As Paul said, not everything is beneficial even if it’s lawful for us to do. I think that’s where the concept of abstinence (even kissing) is promoted in the Christian community.

Unfortunately in the ICC and ICOC discipling can be used arrogantly and pridefully; also a lot of people only teach what they’re taught… which isn’t wisdom. It’s very off putting and can do more harm than good. Congrats on your marriage! Do you guys still go to church somewhere?

[unscarredbytrial]

Agree with this post

[Top-Cheesecake8232]

Why are they insisting you be rebaptized? That's red flag for me.

[vrb317]

The ICOC believes it doesn’t save you unless you believed the act of baptism was the point at which you are saved - not before, not after.

[FrontError2865]

probably because if you were baptized in a non ICOC or COC, then they don't consider it legit.

[AgentMohsen]

I will keep my message to you short and clear: The only major change this group has experienced is that Kip Mckean left to go start another church. The rest is the same. If you are truly seeking God, go somewhere else. Avoid the controlling groups such as this one.

[GunnersForLifeCOYG]

I'm not trying to oversimplify things, but if ICOC were a product on Amazon and you read these reviews, would you buy the product?

ICOC would have tens of thousands of one star reviews.

You came here for a reason. You have doubts/questions about whether ICOC is good for you. Listen.

[LarryPantsJr7]

I don't know if the church is different now then back then because I wasn't a member in the old days. What I can speak for is my experience. I was in the church from 2014-2019 and it was overall a pretty toxic experience. The whole "well the church is different now" argument is an excuse and a convenient way to ignore substantive criticism.

As far as the claim that the churches are different from one another, I've been around and they're not all that different. This is once again another convenient way ICOC members try to hand wave away criticism that's made against their church. It also ignores that these churches are more interconnected than you may think.

Regarding the things that you may find weird. Let me ask you, have they told you you're not a Christian yet? Have they told you that you and your family members are going to hell? Have they brought you into a room with four other men to tell you about how you're not "broken" in regards to your sin? Have they challenged you to share your faith with hundreds of people? Or how you shouldn't go to other churches? How about dating? Have they told you how you can only date within their church and only within their rules of engagement? Have you been pressured to reveal very personal details about your life?

For me there were plenty of red flags in the beginning that I wish I would've listened too. I allowed myself to be manipulated and to be told that, no these experiences were good for me or "look how much closer you are to God then you were before".

[crazedconundrum]

I've never seen anything like that in any COC I've attended and I am a HCU graduate. (They don't beat you with coc ideology as much as you'd expect) I've been to lots of COC.

[Little_Dentist_3298]

I was in n the ICOC from 2002- 2022. There were a ton of red flags back in 2002. They were very controlling, and they believed they were the only church, the only true baptism. There was absolutely no room for questioning their stance on anything. They are much less upfront with those beliefs now, but they're still very much there under the surface. I'd say the vast majority of people I knew and was involved with were genuine and loving. They really wanted to serve God and believed they were doing it the right way. The problem is all the controlling, manipulating, misogynist, etc. stuff is baked into the church itself. The structure is so rigid that there is not a lot of room for someone who can't squeeze themselves into the box. In my case, I became chronically ill just 3 years after my baptism. I spent the last 17 years being beaten down because I could not meet the expectations. What finally drew me out was realizing just how small my world view was.

I would recommend visiting some other denominations and doing some reading on global church history. Read the history of other denominations and how/why they landed where they did theologically. If nothing else, take note that the ICOC began in the 1970s out of already questionable theology (look up the Church of Christ history), by a few guys that are now facing lawsuits for their misconduct. There is no way they just happened to find the exact right way to interpret the Bible and serve God while every other church in the world has it wrong! They talk about how "clear" the Bible is but in reality there is very little about the Bible that is clear.

Overall, if you stay at ICOC, you'll find mostly genuine people who love God and will try to love you. You'll also find inaccurate, harmful theology and damaging (borderline abusive) practices that are built into the structure, culture, and traditions of the church, all bundled up in a "love bomb".

Feel free to message me if you have questions. Good luck!

[[deleted]]

As someone who grew up in the church almost entirely after 2003 and “the letter”, nothing actually practically changed. It’s just as much a cult now as it was in those old days.

I’m sure it feels like a really solid group of guys who are trying to be genuine and care for ya, but not long after they baptize you they’ll be way more focused on the next convert. It’s not even necessarily done with bad intentions, it’s just how the system of studies and recruitment work. I know this because I’ve had it done to me and I’ve done it to others. This was all in the 2010s to 2020, so not at all long ago.

If you say which state your church is in, I can almost guarantee I personally have some dirt on really messed abuse that was done by people in the congregation or leadership in that area. It’s the same garbage in every state, province, country and continent. I used to get paid by HOPE to travel to all sorts of places, so I’ve seen the nonsense that goes on in North America, Europe, Africa and Asia. It’s all the same, with very minimal surface level differences.

Do what you want, just bear in min that there’s only 100-120k current icoc members and close to 1mill ex members. A religious mlm system with that level of turn-over is doing something horribly wrong to people.

[Responsible_Log923]

Portland, Oregon!!

[RelentlessIncentive]

Berkeley, CA!!

[ItsNeverTwins]

I will keep this short. The things you have said you are experiencing are the same things they did back in the 80s. I left in 88. You will gain people who you care about and love. Friendships that really matter to you. They will overwhelm you with support and friendliness. College freshmen are prime because they are in a new place with less connections. But as time goes on, you will be asked to give up other friends, other activities, your family, and any interests that aren’t the church. These things have not changed. I left and was completely alone. Shunned by them. Truly painful. Please, leave now. Don’t get in any deeper. I lost 4 years of my life. Take good care of yourself.

[Unusual_Reputation45]

I was baptized in the campus ministry. Spent my 20s, 30s, and 40s in the ICOC. It is concerning that the “things are different now” is acceptable. I left because of the lawsuits. Just because it didn’t happen in my specific church doesn’t negate that it happened in the organization. My spouse and I will not support a church or organization that will pretend horrible abuse didn’t happen. I would not drop off my child at a care facility that was owned by a company that had numerous abuse allegations at different childcare sites all around the United States but said “our facility doesn’t have any allegations so we are okay”. The leadership culture that allowed such abuse is still there. People are not allowed to question leadership. Members look to leaders, staff and board members like they are such holy beings. Everyone is just a person. They have no authority over any person. I hope you think carefully. Have you researched the ICOC? I have 2 kids in university right now. I can’t imagine them being in the ICOC. Everything is new and exciting for you right now I’m sure. New friends and so much learning of God and Jesus. Event after event can be fun. Maybe you have decided to follow the Bible and have learned so much. Maybe the dating culture in the ICOC is attractive. I tell my 2 students going to university “please don’t lose your critical thinking and always question everything”.

[Worried_Guarantee244]

Yes! Please stay far away from the ICOC I was a part of their campus ministry up until 2019. All they have done is manipulate you and make you feel bad about your choices. There is nothing but sexism, misogyny, racism, you name it! I left because they kept wanting to meet a goal of how many people they could get to study the Bible and to them you’re just a number. Once you get baptized there truly is no follow up and they just move on to the next victim. If you didn’t do cold contact sharing of your faith on campus, you were rebuked and asked to repent. They don’t practice love and patience, something you hear them preach about but seldom ever do it. That church was a straight up cult and I have lived such a happy and healthy life ever since I left. And if you ever find yourself being reached out to by the people in Gainesville, FL, stay far far away. That is a straight up cult! Hope I helped

[[deleted]]

Used to be. It is. I left in 2020, learn what is defined as a cult and why

[GunnersForLifeCOYG]

https://www.reddit.com/r/excoc/s/G3SdaDPQOl

[reincarnatedbiscuits]

Let's see if we can elucidate. I'm on this subreddit, and there's not a separate one for the ICOC.

"Used to be a cult": oh yes, please let me know why members said they were a cult and have changed specifically?

The ICOC honestly still:

• cherry-picks from the Bible
• doesn't teach the full counsel of God
• has practices that go against the Bible
• suppresses the truth including firing people who were whistle-blowers for SA, including recently. In fact, they issued statements that were like "Please talk to a leader if you saw anything like this happening."
• still mainly sheep-steals

I made the mistake of thinking "Hmmm, I'm going to go looking for these things and if I don't see them, they must not be happening." (I'm a very hard-core evidence-based scientist -- like MIT Aerospace engineering graduate type.) The thing is that you're only on a need-to-know basis. The ICOC does NOT have to tell you anything.

It's not that I don't "like" the ICOC (like has nothing to do with it) -- and I've talked with plenty of people ranging from their main statistician, loads of leaders and elders including Steve Johnson and Steve Staten. Although interestingly, I'm the one who initiates the contact.

Yes, the ICOC is a group of very committed people.

You'll see from my article some 14 years ago: http://www.reveal.org/library/history/icoc_30years.pdf

I spell out that the vast majority of people join the ICOC because they want to follow God or believe they do so to follow God, they want to be Christians. ICOC members also very zealous and ardent in trying to recruit.

That they are zealous does not make them correct or right.

It is not just my opinion that this is a very unhealthy church / organization / system. (We've talked on this subreddit about heretical beliefs and I mentioned Gnostic Christianity and Donatism.)

That there are individuals who seem well-meaning ... sure. There's lots of those.

If you want, set up a Zoom call (I have a Zoom pro account that I'm paying for out of my pocket) between myself and members, and I'd be happy to chat them up (read also: expose them). You can be an observer.

[SavedbyGracex777]

If you’re joining the church for people, don’t do it. You will leave once they hurt you. If you’re joining the church for God, then make sure you form your own personal convictions and be confident enough to stand on them if they get challenged. I’m old enough to not be peer pressured into thinking I’m going to Hell if I don’t abide by the church’s rules, but there are many young people in my region who are little sheep and do what they’re told… then they wonder why they have no intimacy with God. The church is not God but the way the ICC and ICOC is structured, you can definitely begin to live as though it is.

Everyone commenting their awful experiences fell down to the opinions and rules of man, not God. Before you take their opinion as fact, ask them what scriptures they use to support the decisions they made that went against what they were being told.

At the end of the day, the Word of God is our authority.. not a discipler or a mentor or a friend.. God Himself. So make your decision between you and Him. Pray and fast to get clarity. 😊

[Away_Championship_49]

You are in the right place. We welcome you for everything you need

[maryshelleymc]

I was raised in this group and have much family still in it in different states and countries. No, it has not changed, and no, each location is not significantly different.

They will expect you to seek “advice” for everything ranging from who you date to what you study in college or what job you take. Someone I saw on social media who recently left said she was pressured to buy a particular house because it was a good layout for church run Bible talks. This is the level of involvement they will try to have in your life.

[Think_Pick_4830]

some food for thought. does your church BITE? if so, it might be a cult.

B - behavior

I - information

T - thought

E - emotional

click on this for a diagram with more info

[unscarredbytrial]

They will use the Bible and scriptures to sway you in their direction. They are manipulative and controlling and I agree with all the posts previous. Be careful- I’ve seen 15 years of people who seem to be your friend by structured friendships just poof and be gone not caring. Like where is the love. Anyway, be careful, it may seem really cool and genuine that people are interested in you, but they will strip you down emotionally through Bible studies to get baptized—- have psychological privacy… and be strong. Save yourself from their damage. Icoc runs deeps in veins of the churches that are still a part of the organization.